Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You can say no.

[Russell Kelley]

No.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Andrée Ménard]

Another issue would be to define what specialized music is, because there does indeed seem to be some overlapping among a number of categories.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I cannot answer you because my time has run out, but I will get back to you later.

[Andrée Ménard]

Fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We're going to move on to Mr. Angus's question, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm very pleased to have everyone here today.

I'll say at the outset that I used to knock on FACTOR's door, and sometimes FACTOR closed the door and sometimes FACTOR opened the door, which is the role of any good funding agency. My children, who read the New Musical Express from England as if it were the Bible, have listed the ten coolest things in the world, and one was Canada because of Canada's ongoing support for music, which is unparalleled by any other country.

So I want to say that at the beginning, because I think the issue that we have to stay focused on here today is not the fight between FACTOR and the Canada Council or MUSICACTION, it's the larger question of the ecosystem of music in Canada and how we balance that. I have spoken with many artists and many festival promoters on this, and they are very clear about the role. I know the English scene better, so I know FACTOR and the importance of FACTOR but also the importance of the Canada Council. To me, I'm hearing a very clear issue. The loss of the diversity fund will impact and have a cost. I know you're non-political and that's very important, but in terms of making the decision, your expertise would have been heard from. Were you asked whether you can take this fund or assume this role? Was that part of the discussion?

[Heather Ostertag]

That conversation has not taken place, and I can tell you that historically, the board of directors at FACTOR—and I can only speak for them—has had confidence in the processes that have determined what new programs are going to be put in place, which ones are going to be continued, and which ones are going to be lapsed.

This isn't the first time a program through the Canada Music Fund has been lapsed, and we trust the process with the interviewing. Yes, we're spoken to when there's a review of a program, and we provide our input based on what we receive from artists, but—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So was the question asked, “We're thinking of axing the Canada music diversity fund—”

[Heather Ostertag]

No, absolutely not. That question was not asked. I don't believe from my own interview that it was even a consideration. What they are doing is looking at and gathering what all the needs are and then trying to do the best they can with a limited amount of funding available. The bottom line is that there isn't enough money, and everybody is trying to do far more than is possible with the finite budgets available.

We all have to adapt to the fact that there are great projects that don't get great support because the money's not there.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I'd like to ask the Canada Council about your role in terms of supporting artists, because you're saying that you've done a pretty thorough evaluation and you're saying there is 15%, basically, crossover in terms of support for artists, career development, and sound recordings, with the sound recordings being down at only 3% overlap?

[Russell Kelley]

What we tried to do is look at any places where there are multiple hits. I'm going to start with saying something first, which is that multiple hits are not a bad thing. That we interact at certain points is to us also very natural, which is part of why we think of it as a complete continuum. When our artists suddenly create something that not only is excellent artistically but also has clearly an appeal, then of course it's going to equally be acceptable at the same tables at FACTOR or MUSICACTION. We find that very appropriate. Our MOU actually does not prevent that. It actually allows us to say up to 75% of something can be recorded by all the agencies together.

What we realize, though, is who uses the programs, who comes to us specifically or who goes to FACTOR or MUSICATION, and we know that a very large part of the community we serve simply does not knock on those doors. They have never knocked on those doors. What we try to do is say that any type of possibility that somebody would come to our programs—in the Canada Council, we have an office called audience and market development, which very much does showcasing and international showcasing and all those opportunities. There are a lot of places where we serve artists in meeting the public—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Right. I'm sorry, I just don't have much time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

You have ten seconds.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I am surprised that there's such little overlap, because it would seem to me that contrary to what's being said about profit versus non-profit, all musicians want to make a living, or otherwise they become bricklayers. To me it's a false argument. So I'm surprised that it would be that low in terms of overlap between the two. Are you telling me that there is a segment that is going to be completely left out if this doesn't continue?

[Russell Kelley]

Yes, our evidence leads us to believe that's the case, that there are many who make recordings not designed to actually hit a popular marketplace, but to be used as tools to get them tours, to get them all kinds of other opportunities.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro, please.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

At the outset, I'd say I'm disappointed at the tone of these meetings, frankly. The government put substantial support behind the Canada Music Fund, $27.6 million annually and $138 million over five years. It is the most money that has ever gone into this fund. They consulted broadly, both informally and formally, with groups.

Frankly, I want to take some issue with something the Canada Council has in its document, where they say that 15% of artists receive support from the Canada Council, but they don't talk about the music diversity fund. The government does deserve some credit, because the government has dramatically increased the amount of funding to the Canada Council. So to say that 15% of artists who are receiving support from the Canada Council also receive support from FACTOR, I'm actually pretty happy with, because we have extended the total amount of funding for the Canada Council. And you, by virtue of that, are reaching further and helping artists more. But you failed to put that in, and it doesn't deal with the music diversity fund.

This is about the music diversity fund, and the opposition wants to talk about cuts when we have in fact put more money into the program. It's not a cut; it's a reallocation. Specifically, we're talking about putting money.... And Ms. Fry can laugh, because she thinks it's funny.

I actually think it's very important that the government is looking forward. We're looking at the digital transition. We've virtually doubled the amount of money. We've gone from $500,000 to $900,000 for the digital transition. We're looking forward. Music has changed in how it's disseminated, how it's recorded, how it's listened to, how it's purchased, everything. Everything has changed with music.

Ms. Ostertag, you've been around music since 1985. That's a long time. I've been around artists too; I've been around artists who have specifically told me how much FACTOR has assisted them. Can you give me some indication of how this music fund will assist artists, those who are aspiring artists, those who are in specialized music, and those who are aspiring to be in more than specialized music? How will this fund assist them?

[Heather Ostertag]

I think there's the fact of the four artists whose names have been put on the table here today and who were part of the hearings. I read the transcripts and thought, “Boy, is there ever some confusion around where the money's coming from”. For example, Zubot and Dawson, we were there for them. We funded their record, Tractor Parts, the record they claimed launched them. We funded them with a record that happened before that.

And there's Andrea Menard, the Métis singer from Saskatchewan, who is claiming that The Velvet Devil is what launched her career. We were there supporting it. We've continued to support her.

And there's Alex Cuba, and Tanya Tagaq, the Inuit throat singer.

I really believe that the 600 people we have each and every year listening to these artists and deciding who's going to get funding may in some cases be the same ones as the council.

We're supporting artists from all genres. We're not focused on the money being repaid. Sometimes you'll have a success story that leads everyone to get excited that there's a good return on investment, but we're supporting more artists who are not succeeding, because we're there in the beginning and helping them at that stage where....

You should look at our annual report, and I'd invite all of you to take a look at it. You are going see names in our most recent one that you are not going to know, but in three to five years those are the names you will be recognizing, because it takes that long for their careers to get developed, and we're there helping them every step of the way.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Will this expanded, extended, enriched Canada Music Fund—because that's what we have—help artists? Five years from now, will we look back and say this has helped artists, it's provided support for artists, and it's continued to develop Canadian talent?

[Heather Ostertag]

Absolutely. All of what the department has done is going to support the industry.

I'm not in a position to comment on how you come up with your funding and how you make those decisions, but I have empathy for anybody who has to do it, because, as an administrator, I don't feel I'm in a conflict of interest sitting here today and answering the questions. I just have to deal with the finite budget and deal with the programs and put the money out there, and I believe that all of it matters.

I'm a broken record, but the real issue is coming from the fact that there is a finite amount of money; we're in an economic crunch. I think people are trying to do the best they can with the information they're given, and I trust the process that's been used to get it to the place where the department made decisions.