Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

No, it's not the same, but yes, I do believe....

I was speaking to the manager of la Fédération québécoise des chasseurs et pêcheurs. That is one of these organizations that are wholly in support of this bill.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So then, you would like us to pass an amendment to section 2 of your bill. Heritage day would then be marked each year on the third Saturday in September, instead of on September 23. Are you okay with this amendment?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Fine.

I'll turn the floor over to my colleague Mr. Pomerleau.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much for your presentation, sir. It looks like you did quite a bit of research before bringing this bill forward. I quickly glanced at the presentation that you most likely made to the House. It contains a lot of historic facts that confirm that hunting, fishing and trapping have been carried out since the dawn of time, or since the arrival of the Europeans on our shores. These activities are closely tied to our identity. You also mentioned in your analysis that you looked at the United States which has a similar type of heritage day.

Did you have time to look at the impact this day had in the United States? Is there a potential for positive economic benefits?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

Yes, it has. From my basic research, of course, when I have time—and most of us don't have time to watch a lot of television, but I do watch what I refer to as the wildlife channel—I can tell you that hunting, fishing, and these activities are looked upon as family activities, as something you can do with your children. As I said to some friends of mine who are business people and are very nervous, well, instead of taking a Prozac or some other anti-whatever, grab a fishing rod, jump in a boat, and go out on a lake somewhere. It will be much more beneficial to you, and you'll have a good time.

Of course, when you speak to your federations, they do have family days, so I think we're looking at this as a healthy and wholesome thing to do with your families. Go hunting. Go fishing. I suspect very strongly that for you, like it is for me, these activities are part of your DNA, actually. My grandson is only five years old and his daddy just took him out to the hunting camp to do a little fishing. He takes him out fishing.

He's in northwestern Ontario. His words to me were that my grandson was just shaking with excitement that he was going hunting birds with dad, so it is in our DNA in our early years. I think that's a story that goes for many, many Canadians.

We had a cottage in the Pontiac. As I mentioned in my speech, my maternal grandfather, Narcisse, was a hunter and a trapper for years and years. He was one of the best. At the risk of saying something inappropriate, he used to say, “I used to teach my aboriginal friends how to trap some animals”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Pomerleau.

Thank you, Mr. Norlock.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very interested in this bill and very interested in the explanation you gave. I will only ask you this rhetorically, because you already know the answer, but it's an answer that everybody else in Ontario always fails. The most historic community in Ontario is Moose Factory, on the James Bay coast. It was founded before any other community, and it was founded because that's where the furs were brought out. The furs were brought up the Ottawa River with the Algonquins and passed into Cree territory. That relationship defined Ontario, as you say.

I think this bill is important for a number of reasons. First of all, there is a recognition of this important role in my region, which is the size of Great Britain. This is not just a sport; this is a cultural way of life.

It certainly is a huge economic driver. We see that when our fishing lodges and hunting lodges are hit through a number of economic downturns: it affects our whole region. But I'm wary of stressing the economics argument; I think it can always be used against us. In the logging arguments, I heard people tell us that if we picked mushrooms, we'd be better off at the end of the day. They could make an argument for that over logging.

The argument to me is that these are deeply felt cultural activities that people relate to the land with and that should be celebrated as such. We can make the economic arguments and we can make all the other arguments, but would you agree that there's a fundamental relationship, that for rural people and for city people who want to go out into the territory, there's a fundamental relationship that's a cultural expression?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Absolutely and that's why I used not an aside, but just a very short part relating to the economic benefits. Because sometimes we need to be very utilitarian as members of Parliament, and there needs to be something in addition to what we're doing.

I'd go even further than that, Mr. Angus. I would say that if you look at most hunters and anglers, you'll find them to be tremendous stewards of the environment--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

--making sure of the heritage that's ingrained. As I said, that's part of our DNA as Canadians, right from the beginning.

So you're very right: we're talking about some of the economic benefits, but they're secondary to the fact that this is a part of this country's valued heritage.

I can go further than that and say that it's even going to new Canadians. I share a great waterway in one of Canada's greatest parks, the Trent-Severn Waterway. If you come into the village of Hastings or go along Rice Lake, you'll find many new Canadians with their families, sitting at picnic tables, catching fish, enjoying a Saturday or a Sunday afternoon escaping from downtown Toronto and those other built-up areas. That's not only part of our heritage; it's something that even new Canadians will share.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

In terms of stewardship, we certainly recognize the role that Ducks Unlimited, for example, plays in restoring wetlands. In my region, Hilliardton Marsh is a great example. Our students are out there as part of their student programs. It has given incomparable benefits in terms of ensuring that we actually know what the bird population is and that we actually have wetlands where ducks can land safely, so there is that role.

I don't want to understress the economic role, but trapping is a time-honoured way of life, and people do make their living through it. I want to go to the issue of first nation hunting and fishing rights, because that is a special and unique relationship identified under constitutional rights. In my region on the James Bay coast--and you've been there and you know what it's like--if people aren't hunting, they're not feeding their families, because otherwise you can't feed your kids with the price of food being what it is at the northern stores in these isolated communities.

So you are supportive of a special recognition on the day so that we are also recognizing the unique relationship that our first nation communities have with their hunting, trapping, and fishing activities?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

That's why, when Mr. Bagnell and I spoke.... That's why I'm specifically saying that it's a friendly amendment. We mention in the body of the bill itself that first nations people were the beginners. Since time immemorial they were the people who hunted and fished and trapped, not only as part of their ability to just exist--and I know that you know first nations traditions--but as part of a deep religious connection with the land and the animals they hunt and fish. They actually respect the animals.

Yes, I'm very much aware, from when we worked along the James Bay and Hudson Bay coasts with the North East Patrol, that being able to hunt moose and especially geese, which form a great part of this, and to catch and smoke sturgeon are tremendous parts of their ability just to get through the winter months.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock and Mr. Angus.

We're going to end our first panel here and allow our next panel of witnesses to appear in front of us. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

Go ahead, Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

We didn't have any opportunity on this side. Were we just going to waive it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

I understood that nobody wanted to ask a question, but if you would like to ask a brief question, Mr. Del Mastro, please go ahead.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Yes, it's very brief. I'll take us to four o'clock.

First of all, thank you, MP Norlock, for bringing this bill forward. You represent the riding just to the south of mine, and I'm very proud to speak of this bill in my riding, the home of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters.

I know that you have a long history in this. I know that you were also a long-serving police office in our provincial police, and I wanted to ask you something. Obviously there's no question that outdoor groups across the country support this measure, and I wouldn't support any changing of the bill, because I believe this is what you want to recognize. I think it's important. There are a lot of outdoor activities like surfing and snowboarding that don't speak to this heritage, so I think it's important that you keep the name of the bill the way it is. You have a unique perspective on things, having served for a long time as a police officer and also having this background in hunting and fishing.

I also know that you served on the public safety committee. I remember that long before I was elected there were a whole lot of bumper stickers going around that said, “Remember Bill C-62 When You Vote”. Obviously that was something that really divided the outdoors community. Can you speak a little bit to your experience? I know that you voted to end the long-gun registry specifically. Do you see that as something that's alienated this specific group in society, this traditional heritage group?

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I have a point of order: relevance.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Of course it's relevant.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

It's not relevant.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

The chair has the floor. Let the chair speak, please.

It's not a point of order. The member is speaking about an issue related to the bill, which is hunting, so I'm going to give the floor back to Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Go ahead, Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

If I can answer your question this way, I was speaking to a reporter today about this private member's bill, and he tried to make the connection to its proximity to the long-gun vote.

I consider Mr. Del Mastro--Dean--a friend as well as a colleague. I do not wish to imperil this bill by mixing it with some other issues. Yes, hunters carry guns, because that's how you hunt. Archery is also a great and growing part of hunting. There is a connection, no doubt, but I think what we have to do with this bill, as far as I'm concerned, is look at it for what it is, and that's talking about our heritage. Part of that heritage....

I grew up with firearms in the house. I worked with firearms in my other career life, and I still have some for recreational purposes. I have my opinion on that, and my voting record and party affiliation, I think, speak for themselves, but this bill goes further than that. This bill speaks to something that we've been talking about, and that's the heritage of our country. It's the DNA of Canada. I'm not saying it's our raison d'être today, but I'm saying it forms part of who we are as a nation. So while I admit there are some linkages, I think we need to look at the positive aspects of that heritage and realize that from the standpoint of our heritage, there's more in this country that unites us than separates us.

These are other battles we can fight on a different field. Yes, I am a member of the public safety and national security committee, and currently I'm also in justice and human rights, but I like to separate the two. I can tell you that most anglers, hunters, and trappers jealously guard their ability to do either the recreational or the livelihood side.

Mr. Angus said that we'll downplay the monetary aspect; I need to throw in that trapping in this country accounts for $800 million annually. Much of that money goes to our first nations folks. It is a very important part not only of the sustainability of their culture but also of their ability to just survive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Del Mastro.

Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock.

We're going to suspend for one minute to allow our witnesses to change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Welcome to the continuation of our 23rd meeting for the consideration of Bill C-465.

We have in front of us on this panel Mr. Farrant, who is the manager of government relations and communications for the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. We have Mr. Rodgers, who is the executive director of the Nova Scotia Federation of Anglers and Hunters. We have Mr. Bailey, who is the vice-president of policy for Canada for the Delta Waterfowl Foundation. Finally, we have Mr. Kendell, who is the president of the Credit River Anglers Association.

Welcome to all of you today.

We'll begin with opening statements from each of the members of the panel, beginning with Mr. Farrant.