Evidence of meeting #42 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you.
The chair is going to give the floor to Mr. Del Mastro.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm always interested when I hear comments like that. Was it a week ago that the opposition was standing and hollering in the House of Commons, pleading that we overrule the CRTC on UBB? And when we do it, somebody comes out and says, “I can't believe the government overruled the CRTC.” You can flip back the other way and say the CRTC is a sacred cow that should never be overruled on anything, even when you put a release out a week before that, saying, “Somebody please overrule the CRTC.” It's remarkable.
But I guess government is held to a higher standard, Minister. I'd like to say that I think you're setting the standard for the Minister of Canadian Heritage, and I think arts and culture groups from across this country have been very clear in that regard as they've come forward and talked about your support for the sector.
Specifically, on the CBC, because that's what we're here to speak about today, I noticed in your remarks that you commented on the CBC's five-year plan. The CBC has put forward a plan that requests no additional funding. They've put forward, I think, an aggressive five-year plan. They have a vision.
Have you reviewed that? Can I just have your thoughts on it?
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
I have reviewed the five-year plan. As I said, Hubert Lacroix has had an open door policy in terms of discussing these issues. He and I have had free and very healthy, good debates and conversations in the past about how things ought to be, obviously respecting the boundary that needs to exist between the minister responsible and the independence of the CBC.
Funding questions are sometimes seen as a little bit more black and white. I've gotten the question here from Madame Lavallée about a five- or ten-year funding commitment to CBC and the question about the $60 million programming fund. But it gets a little oversimplified, doesn't it? Some people say, “How much money are you going to give to the CBC? Is it going to be $1.1 billion, $1.2 billion? For how many years? Locked in? What about the $60 million? Permanent or not?”
The challenges that the CBC and, frankly, all broadcasters have faced in the last three years are far more complicated than that. Don't forget, a third of the CBC's revenues come from advertising revenue, from outside sources--DVD sales, T-shirt sales, everything they do to raise funds from the outside. That's a third of their funding. All broadcasters saw a massive cratering of advertising revenue, so the challenges the CBC faced were a lot more than just how much money the government is going to give us and over how many years.
There were also some structural questions, for example, the sale of some assets that the CBC wanted to monetize in order to make some of the changes they've made structurally within the CBC that in the long term are going to serve the CBC. For example, there is the sale of their satellite radio holdings' storefront--in a parking lot in downtown Toronto, if my memory serves me--monetizing these assets, and doing it quickly, having it done through Treasury Board quickly so that CBC can have access to those funds quickly, so they can address some of the issues they're having in terms of cashflow because of a drop in advertising revenue.
We work with the CBC in a more intimate way than people understand on the financing side. Rather than just saying, when is the budget coming, how much are you going to give them, and for how many years, it's on an ongoing basis, and in a time of an economic crisis like we just had, it's having an open door, a healthy working relationship with the CBC, so we can tackle some of these funding issues head on and in a mature way. That's what we've had.
I've given Hubert Lacroix some praise here, but I think he genuinely deserves it for coming up with really creative and effective ways of making sure that the taxpayers' money they're getting has as much velocity as possible, so that Canadians see the end product, which is more Canadian content on their television screens, on their computer screens, on their portables, and on their radios.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
I know our government was very proactive. If you look, for example, at the G-8 and G-20, we posted all of our expenses proactively. We put them out there for all Canadians. They're available.
You spoke a lot about access to information in your opening remarks. I think it's important, as a public entity—and it's not about attacking the CBC; it's simply about providing confidence to Canadians that their dollars are being well spent.
Whether it's true or not, there is a perception out there that sometimes CBC executives have in the past enjoyed some lavish perks. Do you think it's in CBC's interest to push this information back out, to make it available, and to demonstrate that they have absolutely nothing to hide from Canadians?
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Certainly it is, and it is with all of us. But look, we learned a lesson, didn't we, as members of Parliament in the spring, when there was a public perception that members of Parliament's expenses and also office budgets weren't as openly accessible. People were kind of curious.
It was actually a twofold critique that we had as members of Parliament: the ten percenter issue, number one, and the second issue was the issue of office expenses of members of Parliament. We readjusted. We got together across all party lines and said this is just not healthy that the public has this perception that we're wasting resources and are not accountable. We came up with a new formula that I think has been well served. It's gone forward. And I think crown corporations need to recognize that and CBC needs to recognize that, and I think they've heard the request from taxpayers.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome, Minister. It's the first time we've had the opportunity to interact. I'm new on the committee.
I did want to go back to a question my colleague Madame Lavallée started. The Friends of CBC Peterborough were to come today but have been rescheduled due to time issues. And of course they were galvanized into action. I won't harp on this, but it was because of a comment the parliamentary secretary made that perhaps the government should reconsider being in the broadcasting business and should perhaps exit that business. So of course they were motivated and went into action, and they sent the Prime Minister 6,000 postcards, protesting. They were galvanized because of this, and they are very concerned—and I quote from a letter from them—that there is a suspicion, probably because of the sentiments of the parliamentary secretary, that the CBC may be “crimped, cut, and underfunded and become a shadow of its former self”. I wonder if you could speak to that?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Sure. Look, there are worse quotes than that—I mean, come on—that have been said about the CBC in the past about funding for the CBC.
Look, I have a catalogue of quotes here: “...the CBC has been treated shabbily by successive administrations, downsized, underfunded, abandoned”, from the Toronto Star in 1999. That's talking about the Liberal Party. There are all kinds of critiques, frankly, about the Liberal government and the CBC. I would suspect that you would argue that many of those critiques are unfair.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
They're concerned today, as a direct result of the parliamentary secretary's statements.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
I gather that's the case, and I suspect when they come before this committee the parliamentary secretary will have an earnest engagement with them.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
All right.
As my colleague Mr. Angus from the NDP had to ask you before, there was a motion from this committee back in February 2008 in a report defining distinctiveness and changing media landscape. This committee unanimously recommended that the $60 million be permanently added to the corporation's core funding. I think we all agree that CBC deserves financial stability and security. Have you had discussions with CBC about extension of the $60 million this fiscal year coming?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Every year. Every year when the budget comes up, it's a time of discussion. The CBC obviously has a request that its funding be renewed. It should be noted, by the way, as was mentioned in the question by Mr. Del Mastro, that the CBC has not asked me and has not asked the finance minister for more money. They're not asking for more money. They're asking that the money that they've had so far be renewed.
Our government has tabled five budgets, and in the time of the worst economic recession, worse than what the Liberals faced in the early 1990s by magnitudes—we faced the worse economic recession since the Second World War—we made a commitment to maintain our funding for the CBC, and we kept our commitment in spite of incredible budgetary pressures in other directions. We maintained our commitment, and we're going to continue to do so.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Great. Well, they're very eager to hear if their financing of $60 million will continue as of April 1. Will you commit today to extending that money for their programming?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Well, I'll commit today that the budget will be a great one delivered by Minister Flaherty, and you'll have an opportunity to vote for it if you see there's money in it.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Minister, you know this is a yearly drama now—$60 million—and it's getting kind of old. In fact it's rather embarrassing. It could be turned into a reality show, frankly, and account for some Canadian content on the CBC, wouldn't you think? But it's demeaning, it's unfair, and it's wrong that they have to come to you, cap in hand, every single year. Will you commit to securing the $60 million for CBC as part of their annual programming costs?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
I will commit to maintaining the campaign commitment we made with Canadians, which was to maintain or increase funding for the CBC.
The $60 million programming fund, by the way, Ms. Crombie, was begun by your party--
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
--and your party could have made it permanent and you chose not to. So before you throw rocks, you might want to consider where you're standing.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Oh, I'm not throwing rocks. I'm looking for commitments, Minister.
In terms of stable funding, it's one thing, and we're delighted to hear you're on side, but it also doesn't account for inflation or rising costs. We know that CBC has entered into a collective agreement with a 1.5% salary increase, and they're going to have to find that money elsewhere.
So would you consider adjusting the allotment to CBC so that it accounts for inflation and rising costs? Otherwise, they'll have to make cuts.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
As I described in the question from Charlie, I believe, the relationship with the CBC is not as simple as you're outlining it, and the relationship when it comes to funding and supporting the CBC is not as simple as you're wanting it to be.
We work all the time with the CBC with Treasury Board submissions to ensure that they can capitalize assets, have access to funds ahead of time, in a different time and a different--
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Minister, I don't mean to cut you off. I apologize.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
I'm just trying to answer your question.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I just have 30 seconds left and I have to ask you a very, very important question.
I understand that your party used clips of my leader. They were outtakes of speeches at a public event. They were used out of context in ads that your party is running. Did you have the permission of the CBC to use those clips?
I understand that you've done the same with Citytv and CTV, and you've sat down and negotiated with those two broadcasters, but you haven't done the same with the CBC.