Evidence of meeting #49 for Canadian Heritage in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Jean  Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Okay, we'll get started.

Welcome to the Honourable James Moore, Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Today we are studying, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), the supplementary estimates (B) 2012-13.

With the minister is Daniel Jean, deputy minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, as well as Robert Hertzog, director general, financial management branch.

Welcome to all of you.

I understand, Minister, that you have some opening remarks before we go to questions and answers, and according to the schedule I have, you and your departmental staff will be here for an hour, until 4:30 p.m.

With that, the floor is yours.

November 29th, 2012 / 3:30 p.m.

Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam B.C.

Conservative

James Moore ConservativeMinister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before Committee this afternoon to discuss Budget 2012 and talk about other subjects for which Canadian Heritage is responsible.

You have already introduced my deputy minister and the director general of financial management.

1 am pleased to take this opportunity to update the committee on our accomplishments and priorities as we look ahead to the 150th anniversary of Confederation, for which programming begins with Budget 2012.

I would also like to thank the committee for its report on Canada's 150th anniversary, which we will continue to review over the coming weeks. I will be submitting my response to the report very shortly.

When I appeared before this committee in May, I outlined how budget 2012 maintained our government's support for arts and culture. That commitment remains firm, and, indeed, this year we have many accomplishments to be proud of. I know that all committee members, and this is true across all partisan lines, share a view that arts and culture are important generators of jobs and growth.

In challenging economic times, our government, in our two-year economic action plan, decided to make key investments in culture. Budget 2012 keeps those commitments moving forward. While other governments around the world and even in this country were making decisions to heavily cut their support for culture, our government chose a very different path. Our government is one of the few governments in the world that did not cut funding for arts and culture, that did not maintain funding for arts and culture, but made a deliberate decision to increase our support for arts and culture during the recession.

Contrast this with the decisions other governments are making around the world. In the United States, the National Endowment for the Arts runs on less money now than it did 20 years ago. Many American states and cities have eliminated their cultural supports. Since the recession, Arts Council England has seen its funding cut by 30%. In Canada, we decided to increase funding for the Canada Council for the Arts by 20%, the largest funding increase for the Canada Council in decades, and Budget 2012 maintained that record level of support.

Our government also maintained our support for our national museums. While other countries in the world were cutting back on culture and even closing museums, we increased our funding to all our national museums. In fact, we created two new national museums, and we have a third on the way. We created the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21 in Halifax as a Government of Canada museum, the Canadian Museum for Human Rights in Winnipeg, and the Canadian museum of history in Gatineau, which I will get to shortly in more detail.

I think Canadians in all regions of our country are incredibly proud of our museums because, taken together, our national and local museums in communities all across Canada are some of the best in the world. We value our museums. They tell our stories. The collections that they house and the role that they play in our culture are invaluable. Because of this, in budget 2012 we continued our path of supporting our museums with continued stable funding.

As a matter of fact, on top of the funding that we've protected for our museums, we've doubled the Government of Canada's indemnification program from $1.5 billion to $3 billion every year. This is basically the Government of Canada stepping in to support financially the costs museums incur in housing international collections or moving collections around the country to build thematics.

I know that many of you, and perhaps all of you, met with representatives of the Canadian Museums Association this week. They were in town. This was their number one budget ask. We listened to their concerns, agreed with their top priority, and it is contained in the budget.

Our government stood up for arts and culture when it was needed most, for our economy and our cultural organizations. We understand this sector's importance to ensuring that our economy remains strong. We believe that supporting the arts is essential to supporting Canada's economy and our quality of life.

We know that governments in other countries have made decisions to cut — and in some cases cut heavily — their support for culture. Not us; not this government and not this prime minister. We chose a different path and we have stayed on that path, despite being in a period of economic uncertainty. As our path leads to 2017 and Canada's 150th birthday, we are firmly committed to celebrating our country's rich history and heritage. That is the priority I would like to focus on now.

This year, 2012, marks the beginning of the five-year countdown to our nation's 150th birthday. It offers us an unprecedented opportunity to celebrate the things that define us as Canadians.

It has already been a very eventful year, as many of you know. This year we are celebrating the 95th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge, the 50th anniversary of the Canadian Coast Guard, Her Majesty's Diamond Jubilee, the 40th anniversary of Paul Henderson's goal in the 1972 Summit Series, 100th Grey Cup, which occurred last week, and yes, of course, the bicentennial of the War of 1812, as well as many more celebrations.

We will be celebrating many more milestones over the next five years, including: next year's 100th anniversary of the first Canadian Arctic expedition; in 2014, the 150th anniversaries of the Charlottetown and Quebec conferences; the centennial of women's suffrage in Canada; and the 375th anniversary of the creation of the city of Montreal.

Anniversaries like these connect us. They define who we are as Canadians. They remind us that we have much to be proud of.

Canada's museums are going to play a key role in this undertaking. I've already outlined the importance our government places on national museums. We are the only government in the world, I repeat the only government in the world, that has created, during the recession, three new national museums while doubling funding for programs such as the Canada travelling exhibitions indemnification fund and the Canada cultural spaces fund.

Last month I was very proud to announce that our government plans to create the Canadian museum of history, le musée canadien de l'histoire. On Tuesday, we took the next step in creating this new museum by introducing Bill C-49, the Canadian museum of history act.

This legislation would confirm the new name and mandate for the Canadian museum of history as well as the funding our government has committed in order to make this project a success. It would allow the museum to renovate over 50,000 square feet of its public space, roughly one-half of its permanent and temporary galleries.

The museum's new mandate is outlined in Bill C-49. I'll quote the language of the legislation because it's important.

When we started this museum, there were some, perhaps at this table, who instinctively came out and criticized the government. But I would encourage you to look at this legislation. We can have plenty of arguments, disagreements, and debates, and that's fine. We can have disagreements on what the priorities should be, but this is an institution which we think will certainly serve the interests of all Canadians. In my view, it ought to be beyond partisanship. It could be certainly a source of debate.

This is the exact new mandate of the new Canadian museum of history that we've put forward in the legislation. I think you'll find it agreeable. It reads:

The purpose of the Canadian Museum of History is to enhance Canadians’ knowledge, understanding and appreciation of events, experiences, people and objects that reflect and have shaped Canada’s history and identity, and also to enhance their awareness of world history and cultures.

We want this new national museum to truly reach across Canada as well and to connect together Canada's museums all across this country, as well with our historic places. For that reason, part of the funding we've put forward, this $25 million, will be used to create partnerships between the new Canadian museum of history and museums across Canada that have the same or similar mandate, but they'll do it on a local level.

As you know, the Canadian museum of history, currently the Museum of Civilization, is the largest museum in Canada. It has 80% or so of its collection currently in vaults. We want that collection to get out and move across the country—there are great Canadian stories to be told—so that local museums can have access to the vaults and to the collections that are in this museum and to house them locally.

We've doubled the indemnification program from $1.5 billion to $3 billion so that we can get these collections moving around the country to help local museums host these items that are currently in the national museum, to have them in their local museums so they can build local thematics and tell great Canadian stories with a local context. It will help local fundraising. It will breathe new life into local museums.

I think about the Port Moody Station Museum in my riding. It has a great collection. It's a really charming museum, but when you go there, you realize that everything on display has been on display there for about the last 25 years. If they had the opportunity to have access to the new Canadian museum of history's entire collection and to host things as they choose with assistance from the Government of Canada, it would allow them to rejuvenate and to re-energize their mandate and to offer new things to local museums and local audiences. I think this is a very good thing.

As official partners, these local museums will have access to that. There are three-and-a-half million items, by the way, that are in the holdings of the museum. These museums will have access to that. The local museums will also have the opportunity to work with other museums around the country to build thematics, share ideas on best practices, and build regional thematics that make sense for them. This will become the pan-Canadian infrastructure for all of our museums that we're all very proud of in all of our communities, to work together and to be a pan-Canadian infrastructure for telling Canada's stories one to another.

Canada's history is far from dead. It is all around us. It just needs to be told. It needs to be championed. It needs to be celebrated. I am determined to ensure Canada's story is told to Canadians as we travel on the road to 2017.

I would now be very happy to respond to any questions, whether about this specific subject or more generally about something of concern to you in relation to Budget 2012.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Thank you, Minister Moore.

Now we'll move to our round of questions and answers.

First up we have Mr. Young.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. Thank you to Mr. Jean and Mr. Hertzog as well.

Minister, the opposition has been highly critical of our government's decision to change the name and the mandate of the Museum of Civilization. Can you tell the committee what feedback you are hearing from stakeholders and from Canadians? Will this change come at additional cost to the taxpayers?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you very much for the question, which obviously is a very good one. I'll be frank. This is a project that I've been working on for some time, actually since just after the last election campaign, so for about 18 months. I thought about it prior to that, and it's my initiative. When we launched the museum, we started talking to people about the idea of the museum. Any time there's change to anything—and we're talking about changing Canada's largest museum—there's always a little bit of hesitation.

When I outlined what it is we plan to do, how it is we plan to change the mandate, and the amount of the investment we were talking about, there was instant buy-in. I understand the nature of question period and politics and criticizing priorities and people saying we should do this instead of that. That's fine. That's the nature of democracy. It's not a big deal. However, I think on its own, this proposal has had the support of many, among them, Yves Fortier, who is a member of the Historica-Dominion board of directors, Michael Bliss, and John McAvity of the Canadian Museums Association. People all across the country have come out very enthusiastically and aggressively. It has the endorsement of all of Canada's major national daily newspapers which have all come out and supported this.

I frankly have encountered no opposition. The only opposition to this idea comes from those who would suggest that this money should be spent on other priorities. Again, that's fine. But I think, taken on its own, it's hard to imagine that this country ought not to have an institution that is equal in quality, value, reach, and mandate to the Smithsonian in the United States or the German Historical Museum in Germany or other institutions like those around the world.

Whenever I give speeches on culture, I often remind people that Canada is the second largest country in the world, but in terms of population, we're actually the 34th largest country in the world. We have a lot of divisions, and we know that in this country: east and west, north and south, French and English. There are all kinds of divisions that have always been a challenge in the governing of this country. I've always been a firm believer that these divisions can never be overcome unless we understand each other's individual and shared history.

That's what the opportunity from now until 2017 is all about. We have to have institutions that have a structure at arm's length from government, that are free from partisanship, and that are free from interference. The Museums Act guarantees that. But institutions can have those dialogues and have those debates, and that's what this is about.

Your question of cost is an important one, because we're talking about the budget. The $25 million that we're investing in this is a one-time investment from the Government of Canada. That $25 million is not being taken out of anybody else's pocket. As you all know, we have reduced the budget of the CBC. There is no CBC money going to this museum. This is separate money and is not from that. This is money that was earmarked back during our economic action plan towards events that would speak to Canada's priorities for 2017. This is not money that's coming from other people's pockets.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you, Minister.

As a former member of provincial Parliament for my riding of Oakville, I've always been concerned, as are people in my riding, with the general lack of knowledge and understanding of Canadian history, especially among our young people.

I wonder if you could comment as to whether you agree with that and as to what our government might do to further promote understanding of Canadian history.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

We see it every year. Usually around Canada Day, or sometimes around the new year, the Historica-Dominion Institute—and I guess now the Macdonald-Laurier Institute will do them as well—do surveys and polls, particularly with young Canadians. A third of them know who John A. Macdonald was, but nobody can name who Canada's second prime minister was. It's frustrating, embarrassing, and unnecessary.

We live in a wealthy country. I come from a family of teachers—my sister, my mom, my brother-in-law. We have some brilliant teachers in this country and great schools. There's a great appetite, I think, among Canadians to know more about Canada's history. When Richard Gwyn puts out books on John A. Macdonald, they win awards and they sell out. Pierre Trudeau's biographies and his memoirs were national bestsellers. Canadians want to know about our history, not only the political history but all of Canada's history. When Champlain's Dream came out, there was a second run, and when it came out in paperback with a new section in it, Canadians gobbled it up. They ate it up and they loved it.

Not only is there a market for it, there's an appetite for it. More importantly, Canadians want to learn more about our history. We've done public opinion research internally within the department about priorities of Canadians. People want their kids to better understand Canada's history and their past, because there are some incredible stories there.

I know there are those who have chastised our government's investment into the War of 1812. Again people can question priorities, and that's fine, but when tens of thousands of people come out, and not to out him, but when Evan Solomon drives down to see the re-enactment of the death of Isaac Brock and the battle there, it's heartening. We see it all the time. He sent me an email showing this picture of thousands and thousands of people who have come out to take part in these re-enactments of Canada's history. There's an appetite there, but we want to give it some structure, structure through the history museum, and structure through investments into events and celebrations about Canada's history. This is something for which I think there's a great appetite.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you, Minister.

Can you tell us how the creation of the Canadian museum of history would help coordinate with the country's celebrations of our 150th anniversary of Confederation?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

It will be important as well, because there are a number of celebrations coming up.

We had the anniversary of British Columbia joining Confederation recently, the 325th anniversary of Montreal, and the 400th anniversary of Quebec City which took place only a couple of years ago. What we find with the centennial anniversaries, such as happened recently in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, is the appearance of some very long lists of cities and towns that incorporate right after. It amounts to hundreds and hundreds of towns and cities across the country.

There isn't enough money in the world, quite frankly, to fund all the aspirations of all these cities and how they want to celebrate their centennials and their incorporations, but what we can do is to link them together with the national history museum and allow them to have access to the archives and collections of these national museums, and to tell stories and thematics that make sense to them. It could very well be that they want to do a local story on the importance of women in sport, or great scientists, or great performing arts events, and they want to have access to a national archive of items and collections that will help them build around that theme and tell a story that's important to them.

Far be it from me, as a guy from Vancouver who is Minister of Canadian Heritage in Ottawa, to tell somebody who lives in La Ronge how they ought to celebrate their centennial. Far be it from me to suggest to the City of Regina how they ought to celebrate things as they celebrate their 125th anniversary. They should decide that. However, the best way for us help them, to support how to best make that a great experience for them, is to give them the keys to the vault and allow them to have access to it and to share these things. That's what the Canadian Museum of History will do.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Next, for seven minutes, Mr. Nantel.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Jean, Mr. Hertzog and Mr. Moore, thank you for being with us. We are very pleased to have you here and be able to ask you some questions.

However, I would first like to tell you my reaction to the announcement about the museum. You have referred to our inconsistencies, in Parliament. But I am somewhat puzzled, because this museum and this announcement were clearly connected with Canada's 150th birthday. You said, simply, that when you were elected in 2011, you already had a vision for the museum. It was that, specifically, to which the opposition responded.

At this committee, we have spent 100 hours or so, talking about how we see Canada's 150th birthday. And then you came in with this proposal, which gave us the feeling we had spent 100 hours talking about something and not been heard.

You say you intend to respond to our report, and that is very good news. I am glad and I hope we will get more information about your idea of sending part of the permanent collection of the museum that was originally called the Canadian Museum of Civilization out to the other Canadian museums. We had in fact just considered the idea of announcing the good news in the report on the 150th anniversary.

Less than a half hour ago, we had a discussion in the House. You said we should do a study on Library and Archives Canada, and to that end we should ideally hear from its director and its employees. I would like it very much if we could address that subject at a meeting, which could be held in camera. Since it came directly from you and the subject was raised less than an hour ago, I think that would be useful.

You undoubtedly know that a number of organizations in the Canadian Heritage portfolio have not sent the parliamentary budget officer the breakdown of budget cuts and positions eliminated, although they were asked to do that.

Are you going to make sure that those institutions submit that information?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

Yes. We are open to the idea no matter who wants to obtain information, including about how organizations are fulfilling their obligations, and not just Canadian Heritage, so that people have the information they need.

Allow me to go back for a moment to what you started to say about the 150th anniversary. That is one of our announcements on that subject. It is not the only one and it will certainly not be the last one. With respect to the new Canadian Museum of History, there will certainly be announcements in future. We will have much more to say about that in future. We believe our programming for the bicentennial of the War of 1812 and the 400th anniversary of the founding of Quebec City is also part of this.

Certainly there will have to be an umbrella, if I can put it that way, to promote all of this, when we talk about Canada's 150th birthday. We are certainly going to opt for that approach when we make the announcement early next week.

The Canadian Museum of History is our first focus, but it will certainly not be the last.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

We will be following both the story and the history.

Concerning the cuts to personnel, Canadian Heritage has not given the parliamentary budget officer any information. Your deputy minister appeared before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. He told us about 300 reductions, before the budget, that were intended to wipe out a structural deficit, 38 reductions coming from the budget, and 242 reductions also intended to wipe out a structural deficit.

Why — and he would perhaps like to answer himself - can he provide the information, when you fail to do it when the budget officer asks you for it?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

I am going to let Daniel Jean answer that question, but I think the PBO has expressed his confidence in our department. He has all the information he needs.

Mr. Jean can tell you a little about how we do our work.

3:50 p.m.

Daniel Jean Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage

The information we sent to the PBO falls within his mandate, which says that he is entitled to the financial information. As we understand his mandate, the other questions asked do not come within his mandate. When you ask us this question, you are entitled to an answer, and that is why I have answered this morning.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Right.

The thing is, among the information that Canadian Heritage gave the Parliamentary Budget Officer, we noticed that the reductions targeted the arts and culture industry.

Could you give this committee the details concerning the proposed reductions for each fund and program for which Canadian Heritage is responsible?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage

Daniel Jean

In the context of the deficit reduction, we are talking about 38 positions eliminated in the department as a result of the abolition of programs.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Right. Thank you.

I am going to ask a question that Mr. Moore may want to answer. It concerns the European Union.

In the last few days, some documents relating to the economic agreement with the European Union have surfaced. They indicate the negotiating positions of Canada and Europe on various issues. Those issues affect culture, among other things. They have been made public.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Point of order, Mr. Calandra.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I'm not sure if you can tie that into the estimates.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Mr. Nantel, I noticed this the last couple of questions. The minister and departmental officials are here on the supplementary estimates (B). We allow a little bit of leeway, but let's try to focus on the supplementary estimates. That's what they're here to speak to.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

I am getting there.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Can you assure us that under your proposed budgets, there is going to be an adjustment, a connection with those negotiations, that will protect our cultural industries?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

Not directly. We invest in the Canada Media Fund, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and festivals or cultural events all around the country, and we are going to continue doing that. That is not because of any agreements with Europe or any potential free trade agreement. It is not jeopardized by either of them. It is something completely different. Nowhere does it say what will be allowed and what will be jeopardized if there is an agreement in future.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you.

I was with you on Monday at Rendez-vous 2012 — Montréal, Cultural Metropolis. You spoke at length about the 375th anniversary of Montreal, but you did not give any details. The city of Montreal has made very specific requests, including expanding the Pointe-à-Callière museum. The provincial government has made commitments in that regard. There are now five years left. Are you going to support the city of Montreal in these efforts?