Canadian Heritage Committee on March 20th, 2013

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I want to thank the minister for joining us.

I will talk about heritage, as a general concept, and about history, more specifically.

You've talked about the importance of history and of making Canadians in general more aware of their history. You talked about the fact that there are several provinces in which history is not a required course; it's squeezed into their social studies.

I come from pretty conservative country where everyone wants to know the practical reasons for doing things when it comes to time and resources and money. You've talked in this committee before about how investing in the arts and in culture in general will actually have an economic spinoff. But not even focusing on that, can you address how we're going to help Canadians increase their awareness of history and why that is so important?

Canadians, a lot of us, think our history started in 1867. We have a really rich and fascinating history since then, and also before then, but who cares? Why would we want to spend time and energy on that?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As you said, our pre-Confederation history and the importance of it were the reason we supported so robustly the 400th anniversary of the founding of Quebec City. It's why we're very proud of our commemorations of the bicentennial of the War of 1812. The War of 1812 was the most important thing, pre-Confederation, that led to the confederation of Canada in 1867. Without the War of 1812, you don't have the protection of aboriginal peoples. Aboriginal Canadians would have had much the same future as American Indians did. There is the protection of the French fact in North America, and the defining of our territorial boundary and integrity with the United States. It also paved the way to Confederation in 1867, with the conferences in Quebec City and Charlottetown in 1864. It was the most important event that happened prior to Confederation itself.

So you're right. But to answer your bigger question, I always phrase it this way: Canada is the second-largest country in the world, but in terms of population we're the 34th-largest country in the world. A great number of things can be said about this country. The most impressive thing is that in spite of extraordinary differences of east and west, north and south, Protestant and Catholic, francophone and anglophone, and aboriginal and non-aboriginal, this is a country in which, with extraordinary tensions east and west all over this country, we have been able to not only endure and stay united, but to thrive in a way that few other countries in the world have. It's a remarkable achievement by all Canadians that we've been able to do that over the years.

It's a very impressive story, and I think Canadians should know more about it. We should have institutions like the Canadian museum of history that talk about that. And by the way, it should wrestle with not just the great and glorious and wonderful stories, but also with some of the more challenging questions of our time: Japanese internment, the Chinese head tax, the treatment of aboriginal peoples in our residential schools. We've had some very challenging parts of our history, issues we should not be afraid to discuss and debate. The War Museum does it already in some ways. The Canadian Museum for Human Rights will do it as well.

Canada's history is a story of really impressive achievements in the face of extraordinary odds. These are the things we want to highlight and talk about and celebrate in a non-partisan way as we head towards 2017.

Again, I hope that all political parties will take me up on it when I say sincerely that this is really what we're trying to do. It's really what we want to accomplish. That's why we put people on the board of the new Canadian museum of history who are not Conservatives. Richard Gwyn is on the board. He's a columnist with the Toronto Star who is very thoughtful and smart, an intelligent man. He is Pierre Trudeau's biographer. He also wrote the biography of John A. Macdonald. He's a very thoughtful guy. We put him on the board as well because of his expertise in Canadian history.

I hope all parties will see the merit of this effort and support the legislation when it comes before this committee.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

The more I study Canadian history, the more I feel that if we had a better understanding of it, a lot of our problems and issues of unity and the conflicts amongst the various founding peoples and the new immigrants who are coming in would be resolved, because we would have a deeper understanding of how we got to this point and recognize those achievements.

Now I'm going to go a little bit broader and go beyond history to talk about heritage itself. I actually put heritage as my number one pick for which committee I would like to be on. A lot of people wonder why. We talk about how important the economy is. It is our government's number one priority, and I think it should be, but the fact that Canada is leading the world right now economically is not really what defines Canada. It's our heritage that defines Canada.

We're talking about millions and millions of dollars. What does heritage have to do...? If economy is our priority, why are we spending money on heritage in general and not just on the history part of it?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Well, it's a falsehood, and I say this as some of you have been to my movie nights as well. We've had nine movie nights on Parliament Hill and three music nights. We have another movie night in April. You'll hear me again beating this drum and telling these numbers, that anybody you encounter who suggests that arts and culture isn't central to the Canadian economy is someone who doesn't get it.

Arts and culture represents $46 billion in the Canadian economy, over 640,000 jobs. It's three times the size of Canada's insurance industry. It's twice the size of Canada's forest industry. It's a massive generator of economic growth and activity in all regions of this country. So it is part of the economy.

Second, you're right. I too am passionate about Canadian history. I'm passionate about Canada. When you have those great moments like we had in Vancouver—we had the privilege of hosting the 2010 Olympics, and we had these great moments of celebration across the country. It's something that I think has been lacking in our country's history for a long time, which is to have great moments of celebration and recognition of Canadian achievement. We have a lot to be proud of as we head toward our 150th birthday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Cash, for five minutes.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here, and Mr. Jean and Mr. Hertzog.

I'm just going to take a minute here and address a recommendation from you, Minister, that you made in the House during question period on Monday and that you referred to once again a few minutes ago.

I'd like to give notice of the following motion: that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a comprehensive study of the recent changes at Library and Archives Canada, including the introduction of a code of conduct, and invite relevant witnesses, including Daniel Caron, as well as representatives from library, archivist, and archaeological associations.

Based on your comments, I hope that your parliamentary secretary and the rest of the Conservative members on the committee will support the motion, and I look forward to that happening. Perhaps we could get unanimous consent now and move on. If not—

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

A motion to move in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

There's a motion to move in camera.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Don't I have the floor? Can he move a motion while I have the floor, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Yes, there's a motion to move in camera.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

But don't I have the floor?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

He just moved a motion.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

To go in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

That's right. You said you were introducing a motion, but we're not debating it.

Mr. Calandra has a motion to move in camera.

We will take a little break while we move in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

When we left off, Mr. Cash had about four minutes left.

Mr. Cash.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

I wanted to get into the issue of the reality of how artists make a living in Canada and the sense we have that your government doesn't understand the way artists make a living in this country.

One of the reasons we feel this way is that when your government slashed the budget for StatsCan, it was forced to abolish its culture division and its programs to understand arts and culture in Canada.

The music industry is one that I know well. It's close to my heart. Based on a recent Canadian Independent Music Association report, they pegged the average annual income for musicians in Canada at $7,228. That's the reality for many people in the music sector.

But in the independent music sector, for every dollar the government spends on support, they get back about a 22% return on investment. For every dollar that federal and provincial governments put into the independent music sector, they get $1.22. An amount of $76 million was invested from combined provincial and federal sources, and an amount of $93 million was received in revenue in 2011.

I just want to give a couple of other quick little facts. The reason I'm doing this is that we need to track these things.

In 2011 the total direct impact on GDP from all the culture and arts sector.... Well, we know that the number for 2007 for the sector in totality, with the spinoffs, was $84 billion. In 2011 the direct impact on GDP was about $46 billion.

Some of these numbers are from the Canadian Independent Music Association and some are from the Conference Board of Canada.

The question is this. You've mapped out a lot of ways in which the government works in the arts and culture space, but isn't it time to invest in departmental measures to help government understand how artists make a living in this country?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I agree, and we are—and we've increased that funding.

You mentioned at the beginning of your statement, or question, or what that was, that our government has ended cultural collection of data through Stats Canada. That's factually not true. We've actually taken money from our department, $500,000 of internal administrative costs, and we've continued to collect that data.

So there's actually no gap that you're describing. As a matter of fact, we've increased the data collection to achieve exactly what you've described.

It is important, as you've said. We talk as a government about the importance of culture not just for its own sake and for the sake of quality of life, community living, and all these things; it also is incredibly important for the economy. That's why you do have to know where artists are getting their money from, as you've said. That is an important thing to keep track of.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Minister, there's been a lot of talk about how seasonal workers are affected by cuts to EI, but there's been very little talk about the effect of those cuts on the arts and culture sector.

The Directors Guild of Canada said that they are concerned that:

...new regulations may force some members, whose use of employment insurance benefits places them in the “Frequent Claimant” category, out of the screen-based industry.

I'm wondering, were you consulted by the minister on how changes to EI would affect artists? And did Heritage provide any impact notes on EI reforms and how they would affect artists?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Cash, your time is up, but we'll allow just a quick response from the minister.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Certainly, the reforms that Minister Finley has put in place are widespread. The whole goal of them, of course, is to make sure that Canadians have EI when and where they need it across the country regardless of the nature of their employment. But if you have a specific question—and it sounds like a reasonable one—about how the EI reforms are impacting Canada's cultural communities across the country, you're free to invite the minister here to describe those reforms in detail, and how they impact the cultural community.

Don't forget, when we make changes to policy with regard to Employment Insurance, for example, it's not just a budgetary measure. These also can be amended and tweaked over time through regulation. If there are particular regulations that could be implemented that would have beneficial outcomes to the overall goal of our government, which is to have a healthy and strong EI system when and where Canadians need it, I know that Minister Finley is a very reasonable person who would be more than open to hearing those suggestions if they're coming from a place of sincerity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Richards, for five minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for being here, Minister.

I have a few questions. Hopefully I'll get time for them all.

I think it was Mr. Boughen who was asking about the upcoming centennial of World War I, and you mentioned in response the efforts being made to digitize the stories of the Second World War veterans, and now the Korean War veterans. That's something that I believe very strongly in. Three years ago I had an opportunity to take my son, when he was 14, and one of his friends over to tour some of the battlefields that Canadians have fought on and to see Juno Beach, where so many Canadians laid down their lives for our freedoms. The impact that had on my son, at 14 years of age, to see those battlefields and to see those beaches.... I think it's something that all young Canadians should have some ability to experience. One of those ways is through those stories. Certainly, our generation had the opportunity, whether it be the fathers or grandfathers, to hear first-hand those accounts, those stories of the sacrifices that were made on our behalf.

I want to just ask a little more. I had a chance to participate and bring the memory project to my riding and to visit with a lot of my World War II veterans. There were a lot of great stories that were shared and are going to be very well preserved for future generations to be able to have that understanding. I know the World War II project was in partnership with the Historica-Dominion Institute. I assume the Korean project is as well.

Can you give us a little more information on that project, how it's proceeding, and what we, as members of Parliament, can do to help and support it?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's modelled in very much the same way. Anybody who's curious about it should go to the Historica-Dominion Institute, which is managing the memory project. We'll follow the same procedure, because we found that it was very successful as well.

We fly to and from Ottawa a lot—you're from western Canada—so we accumulate a lot of Aeroplan points. Over the years I've taken it upon myself, on my own self-guided trips, to go to Commonwealth grave sites in all different parts of the world. On my desk I have sand from all five D-Day beaches. Of course, Juno is prominent. And then I have rocks from the beaches of Dieppe. I have sand from the beaches of Anzio. And I have a rock from the train bed of Auschwitz as well, from a different tour I did of 16 different Holocaust camps.

It's very important to understand World Wars I and II, what they were about, why they fought, what was sacrificed, what was to be learned from those battles as well. I've had the privilege to go and visit all these different sites and learn those lessons and see those museums and talk to veterans.

One of the great things the Canadian War Museum does here in Ottawa is that when you go in there, typically the first person you'll meet is a veteran—all volunteers. I did a tour of the Diefenbunker a month ago or so. You go in there and there are veterans just waiting to volunteer to tell their stories. After a life of public service in the most noble way possible, they give back and they volunteer again at our museums to tell our kids stories. It's an impressive thing.

So anything that we can do to make it easier for them to tell their stories, not just to those like me, who have the privilege to go and visit all these museums, but to generations of kids to come, and digitize their stories and have them online at the national Canadian museum of history or at the national War Museum, so that kids can hear in the correct tone and voice and the chosen language how people describe their experiences.... It's incredibly impactful. That's what we're trying to achieve with the Second World War project and the memory project's extension for the Korean War. It's really important.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Well, I thank you, Minister. That's a very important thing that future generations have—an ability to share in those stories. I thank you for your efforts in doing that.

I'm going to turn the rest of my time over to Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Richards and Mr. Chair.

In light of the brief but very fruitful discussion with colleagues, I seek unanimous consent to move the following motion: that the committee invite the president of Library and Archives Canada to appear before the committee and inform the members of his vision and the future mandate of Library and Archives Canada.