Evidence of meeting #102 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was media.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Isabelle Mondou  Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage
Thomas Owen Ripley  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Geneviève Desjardins

8:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Good morning.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 102 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I want to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are in person and the others are on the screen.

The thing to remember is that you're not allowed to take photographs of the screen or anything. You can get it later on online.

While public health authorities have said we don't have to wear masks, I'm going to wear one, and I hope you will all do so for your own protection and that of the people near you. There you go. I've made my point.

I want to take this opportunity to remind everyone that you speak through the chair.

Remember that the audio system is powerful. In order to spare the ears of the interpreters from damage, please make sure that your phones or other devices are not standing next to your microphone. Turn your microphone off—mute yourselves—when you're not speaking. Just before you speak, remember that sometimes an open mic as you hang up can make a lot of noise as well in the ears of the interpreters. Be aware of that.

This morning we're having a briefing with the Minister of Canadian Heritage, the Honourable Pascale St-Onge, on her mandate.

Welcome, Minister.

You have a point of order, Kevin.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I just want to confirm that we're going for an hour here this morning. We started 11 minutes late. I'm just wondering—

8:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

The minister has said she will stay for an hour from the time she begins.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Okay. I didn't know that. That's good.

She'll be here until 9:26, then.

8:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Yes. I guess so. Thank you.

Accompanying the minister are Department of Canadian Heritage officials. We have Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister of Canadian Heritage, and Thomas Owen Ripley, associate assistant deputy minister of cultural affairs. He has been here so often I think I know him extremely well just by looking at him.

The minister has told us she will stay for an hour from the time this begins.

I'm going to give the minister a chance to present for 10 minutes, and then we will have questions and answers.

Begin, Minister. Welcome.

8:25 a.m.

Brome—Missisquoi Québec

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge LiberalMinister of Canadian Heritage

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm sorry for the confusion this morning, but I'm committed to being with you for an hour. There's no need to worry about that.

Members of the committee, I would first like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin Nation.

Thank you for inviting me to speak to you about my priorities as Minister of Canadian Heritage.

With me today are Ms. Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister of Canadian heritage, Mr. Thomas Owen Ripley, associate assistant deputy minister of cultural affairs, and Ms. Joëlle Montminy, senior assistant deputy minister of cultural affairs.

Defending and promoting our culture is very important to me. I've done it before, when I worked as president of the Fédération nationale des communications et de la culture. That's why, among other reasons, I decided to enter politics in 2021. I saw that there were a number of pressing problems, and I wanted to contribute to the solutions.

For several years now, the cultural and communications ecosystems have been experiencing major upheaval, largely because of the web giants' business model.

With change comes the need to adapt. The status quo is no longer an option. That is why, as a government, we are in the process of making necessary changes that will allow our culture's diversity to thrive from coast to coast for decades to come.

We have worked very hard over the last few years to modernize the legislation governing culture and communication. I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work of my colleagues on the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, who have contributed a great deal to the success of this legislation. I also want to acknowledge the work of my predecessors, ministers Guilbeault, Joly and Rodriguez, who paved the way and showed great determination.

We re on the verge of a major achievement. On the one hand, we're going to ensure that online communications platforms will help support the production of Canadian content in all its diversity, while, on the other, taking into account the fact that French is a minority language in North America.

The proposed legislation on online streaming is also important for shoring up an industry that generates considerable economic spinoffs and provides good jobs across the country.

Along the same lines, we are convinced that the public must be able to access reliable, independent news sources in order to contribute to democratic dialogue across the country. This is why the Online News Act represents a turning point. This legislation will ensure that news media are fairly compensated by the platforms that benefit from their work. With both of these acts, we responded with conviction and with the support of most political parties, who understood the importance of taking action.

Madam Chair, all this to say, as we look back at what our government has been able to achieve for arts, culture, information and our heritage, it’s important to remember where we started, which is far behind, due to the Conservatives' lack of engagement and recognition for our cultural sector. The lack of interest was, in fact, damaging. Our vision as a government is shown in our track record of delivering historic support for arts and culture every step of the way.

We made the choice to support reconciliation, including promoting and preserving indigenous languages. Indigenous communities across Canada are doing this work, and we will continue to support them. In recent years, we've been there to support our creators, our venues, our artists and our artisans. We have always chosen to invest in culture, especially in times as difficult as the pandemic. Some have called this irresponsible spending, but we call it investing in our country and in the talent of our people.

I'm proud to be part of a government that recognizes that.

The cultural sector is immensely important. Arts, culture and heritage represent more than $57 billion in the Canadian economy, and close to 673,000 jobs in sectors such as film and video, broadcasting, music, publishing, archives, performing arts, heritage institutions, festivals and celebrations.

I mention this because, since 2015, we've had to rebuild support for culture and the right to news media. Both of these sectors have been damaged by years of budget cuts and the Conservatives' inaction. We made these decisions in the belief that, as a country, we stand to gain by promoting culture for the common good. That's what we call political courage.

However, in light of the enormous challenges facing the cultural and news media sectors, I come before you with concerns. I'm worried because, even today, some people continue to say that our culture, in all of its forms of expression, doesn't deserve to be promoted. It concerns me to hear, day after day, certain politicians telling tens of thousands of cultural and news media workers that their work does not deserve to be protected by fair and equitable legislation. It's dangerous and risky for a party to promise to roll back all the progress that we've made and that will allow us to succeed.

It's often said that governing means making decisions. I'd therefore like to conclude by saying that the Liberal Party has decided to make culture and news media a priority.

Thank you, and I'll be happy to answer your questions.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much, Minister.

Now we'll begin with the questions. The first round is a six-minute round. As you all know, the six minutes is the questions and the answers.

We will begin with the Conservatives with Rachael Thomas.

Mrs. Thomas, go ahead.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Minister, thank you for making time to be here with us today.

My first question is as follows.

Yesterday, there was an announcement made with regard to Google and the government making a deal. Before I get into that, maybe I'll preface it. You stated that the Liberal government put Bill C-18 forward to “fix a commercial and power imbalance between tech giants and our news media sector.”

The deal that was entered into yesterday between Google and the government would actually appear to show that Google forced the hand of the government. Google got everything it wanted: $100 million spent, one agreement and one collective chosen by Google on their terms. It's clear then that big tech is actually in the driver's seat.

Is this your idea of fixing the power imbalance that exists between big tech and the news industry—by giving them more control?

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Madam Chair, I disagree with my colleague's interpretation of yesterday's announcement.

First of all, I'd like to point out that Google, like Facebook, was opposed to the government legislating in this sector. It did not think the government should be doing this. We decided to proceed regardless, and pass legislation that creates a much fairer relationship between web giants and our Canadian media.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Minister, I really want to be respectful toward you. I asked you a very specific question, and I would ask that you answer the specific question.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

That's exactly what I'm saying. Google didn't want legislation, but because we have legislation, the company is now required to pay a sum of $100 million, to be indexed annually, to the Canadian media sector. Obviously, Google would have preferred to continue paying money only to those it wished to pay it to.

We made sure that local media, independent media—

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Minister, just out of respect for time.... Thank you.

I will go to my next question, because it's clear that you don't want to answer that one.

It is unfortunate, though, that more power was put in the hands of big tech and that Google was given control over the terms, because the whole point of Bill C-18 was to help level the playing field. That what's been touted the entire time.

At the end of the day, what we've landed with is Meta walking away. It is no longer carrying the news. Google said it would stay and negotiate, but only on its terms, so the government and Google entered into a backroom and they created a deal. They cooked up a deal, and all of Google's terms have been met.

It is another example of big tech and big government colluding, and it will ultimately damage news in this country. It will damage accessibility to news and the choice that Canadians have with regard to news. Yesterday was actually a really sad day in Canada, because that's the impact it will ultimately have.

My question is with regard to this agreement that was cooked up. I'm wondering if you can describe the criteria that the government will use to determine whether a news business gets state approval to join a collective. What are the criteria that the government will use to determine whether or not an outlet is an eligible news business?

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Madam Chair, a lot has been said, and I'd like to set the record straight.

The agreement reached yesterday with Google regarding the Online News Act is as follows: Google has committed to paying Canadian media $100 million annually, which will be indexed to the rate of inflation.

With respect to the criteria regarding which media will have access—

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Minister, again, with all due respect—

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Madam Chair, may I answer the question, or am I going to be constantly interrupted?

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

On a point of order, Madam Chair, the minister was trying to answer her question. It would be great if the minister had the opportunity to respond and we could hear the answer to her question, rather than being interrupted by Mrs. Thomas.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Please continue.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I trust my time was stopped.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Yes.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Perfect. Thank you.

Minister, my question was with regard to criteria—nothing else. I just want to know the government's criteria for determining a news business is eligible to enter into a deal with Google. It's just the criteria.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

The criteria are listed in subsection 11(1) of the act. They include independent news outlets, official language minority community news outlets, traditional news outlets and indigenous language community news outlets, as well as all media outlets providing journalism in Canada that wish to take part. They will be able to take part in the collective and the agreement with Google.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

The CBC already receives $1.4 billion in taxpayer money, and it receives another $400 million in ad revenue and subscription fees.

Will the CBC be approved as an eligible news business in this deal with Google?

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

CBC/Radio-Canada is eligible, based on the criteria in the act.

We have obviously taken into account the fact that CBC/Radio-Canada employs approximately one-third of the country's journalism workforce. This will be taken into account in the final version of the regulations, which will be published before the act comes into effect on December 19.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Minister, I am trying to be respectful, but you're disrespecting my time.

My question is this: How much will the CBC get?

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

The regulations are currently under review by the Treasury Board, and the details will be unveiled before the act comes into effect on December 19. My colleague will find answers to her questions in the regulations.