Information & Ethics Committee on June 17th, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'll just remind members that the chair has a responsibility to keep order and decorum and to make decisions. Those decisions are not debatable, but the recourse for any member would be to challenge the decision of the chair, and the committee will decide.

I don't want to have debates with anybody on these matters. All members will know that if they're going to use their time in ways in which they're not going to get information, it doesn't serve any useful purpose to anybody. They also have parliamentary protection on matters that they say here.

I won't judge any member on this committee. I have no authority to sanction or censure, and I won't, but I caution members to be judicious and not to overstep the bounds. We have rights, but with rights also comes responsibility.

That said, we have 30 seconds left in your time slot.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Let me make the--

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

How could she have 30 seconds left? We have over--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Excuse me; I heard the question.

Whenever a point of order is raised by an honourable member, I stop the clock, because if I didn't, a member's time could be totally taken up by other members' points of order--

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I appreciate that, Chair, and I understand that, but in the same breath we're--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

And the official clock--just a moment--is the clerk's clock. It's at 6:31 right now. There are 30 seconds left in this time slot, and the reason it's over about a 10-minute period is that there have been points of order, okay?

That's just so members are aware of how it works. The chair doesn't do this arbitrarily; it's on the clock. Okay?

I know you have a BlackBerry that has a timer on it, and things like that, but--

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Well, I've been timing it, Chair, and it's--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Anyway, let's carry on.

Madam Foote, you have 30 seconds left if you want to use it; otherwise, we'll move on.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

No, I will use it, Mr. Chair, just to put it on the record that Mr. Togneri did say under oath before this committee that Minister Paradis had given him informal authority to deal with access to information requests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Madame Freeman, please.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good morning, Minister. We are very glad to have you this morning, especially since we have invited you several times.

I would like to ask you a question. As part of our study of the Access to Information Act and of other studies conducted by this committee, we have questioned various witnesses, including Mr. Togneri. We have also invited other witnesses to appear, such as Mr. Dimitri Soudas. However, you know that Mr. Soudas was a no-show. Actually, he did accept our initial invitation, but unfortunately, the fire alarm went off. The circumstances were rather unfortunate, don't you think so? After that, we had to subpoena him.

The three of them were subpoenaed, and each time, you said that ministerial responsibility was involved and that the ministers had to appear. Last Tuesday, Mr. Walsh informed us that ministerial responsibility extended to your officials, but not to your political staffers. So then, the first thing we had was the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House issuing a legal opinion.

Then, regarding the Afghan detainee issue, on May 25—I'm not sure about the date—the Speaker of the House of Commons, Peter Milliken, also contended that you should, as a member of the government, submit to the will of Parliament—be it Parliament or a committee—and that Parliament had precedence over the executive power.

So, we have two opinions—Peter Milliken did not issue an opinion, he made a ruling, and Mr. Walsh issued a legal opinion.

Yesterday was the last possible day for Mr. Dimitri Soudas and the two others who were subpoenaed to testify to appear. You are, as Minister of Justice, the embodiment of law and order, so please explain to us why you think that it is okay for Dimitri Soudas, an employee of the Prime Minister, to not appear. Since you are Minister of Justice, sanctioning Dimitri Soudas' actions is tantamount to violating the laws and rules. That is what Mr. Peter Milliken told the House and what your law clerk told us in committee on Tuesday. Can you explain to us why the Minister of Justice is not complying with the law?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You have a lot there. You said with respect to the ruling of Speaker Milliken... Again, Speaker Milliken dealt with something very specific, which is with respect to documents that had been redacted on the basis of national security, national defence, or international relations. There has been a considerable ongoing--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

No? You didn't mention that? Okay.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I would like him to answer my question. I do not want him to review Peter Milliken's entire ruling. I would like him to stick to Peter Milliken's statement. That is the only thing that I am interested in. I do not want him to report on the issue of Afghan detainees. I just want him to...

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Madame, this is--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

After all, this is my allotted time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Madame.

Order, please.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

But Madame--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Minister, just... Let's understand--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Answer my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

--how the chair looks at these things. We only have a--

The clock is stopped, Mr. Hoback.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We only have limited slots of time, and in the absence of any extraordinary circumstances, I try to allow proportionality in terms of the question and answer. The question was complex, with a number of issues, etc. The minister was in the middle of answering to the best of his ability, and in respect to the witness, I think, Madame, we really should let the minister respond. If the minister should happen to maybe stretch things on a little too far and gobble up too much time, I certainly will interrupt. Okay?

Just to finish off on the first question from Madame--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will simplify my question.