Evidence of meeting #51 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was conservative.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I learned it after the New Democratic Party's leader got up in the House of Commons.
7:30 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay, but why do you use the phraseology here, “The office also, I learned recently...” because you're not referring specifically...? It sounds like--
7:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I apologize if my statement was vague. I learned on March 3 that the office stocks parliamentary letterhead.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Siksay.
Mr. Poilievre, you have seven minutes.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I'd like to thank the witness, Mr. Nejatian, for being with us today, and for his very forthright presentation. I know it must be very difficult for you, having made a mistake, to acknowledge it in front of a large group. But you've done that, and you've taken responsibility.
Before I get into the substance of the events that led to this, just so we understand where you are right now, there was a report on CBC's The National on this subject. I understand Terry Milewski said that “you were in the process of selling your effects and moving to Iran”. He said that you had advertised your effects and that you were moving overseas. You had put them for sale on Kijiji, and that you had sold a desk for $1,400. Is that accurate? What we understand from this report is that you would be in another continent by now. Is that...?
7:35 p.m.
As an Individual
I would like to say two things, if I may, Mr. Chair.
First, I have never owned any piece of furniture worth $1,400, I think.
Second, I have done human rights work on the Iranian issue. My family left Iran because I started getting into trouble at a young age. I worked at the Iran Human Rights Documentation Center in New Haven, Connecticut. If I went back to Iran, I don't think you would ever see me again. I have no intention of ever going back. I love...this is the greatest place in the world. I couldn't imagine leaving it.
7:35 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Right, so that's clear. I wanted to ascertain that you were not trying to leave the country in order to avoid testimony and moving to a different part of the world for that.
7:35 p.m.
As an Individual
No, the chair and Mr. Easter have been extremely kind to me. When the request first came out, I was on a job-hunting trip and not in the city. I have no intention of avoiding the committee. I have the greatest respect for this committee and I'm happy to be here.
7:35 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
You've acknowledged that you made a mistake in issuing this type of letter on parliamentary letterhead. Do you think there is a need for new parliamentary staff and political staff from all parties to have a little bit more training, perhaps, in the rules and the protocols so that we might see young people enter and avoid making similar mistakes in the future?
7:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
I think it's obviously open to Parliament to require that it be done. I felt that in my six weeks in the department I received lots of training. I had lots of meetings and lots of briefings. It was--I don't have a better way of putting it--a dumb mistake. I will never, ever not look at the top of another letter, ever again, and I apologize to committee for having made the mistake.
7:35 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I appreciate that. I'm sure all members of the committee equally appreciate it.
I think Mr. Abbott wanted to ask some questions, so I'll just give the rest of my time to him.
March 21st, 2011 / 7:35 p.m.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Okay.
Certainly from this side of the table we really respect the fact that you have taken this stand and come before us, dealing in a very forthright way with this issue.
If I may ask you a personal question, I'd like to know how it must feel for you to know that I had actually tabled a motion--that was not accepted for technical reasons--wherein the chair of this committee was actually accused of doing something very similar, and, by a strange twist of fate, the MP that your document went to, who shed the light on your mistake, had an employee, Erica Bullwinkle, commit the same kind of offence.
How does it make you feel to be held to this level of accountability when you don't see...?
I beg your pardon?
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the matter the member is talking about was ruled out of order...for the clerk.
This is a hearing related to Mr. Nejatian. I don't think the member's remarks have any merit. He's trying to put you in a conflict to try to divert attention from the real issue, which is the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration abusing his power.
7:40 p.m.
An hon. member
What's fair for the goose is fair for the gander.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
You guys don't understand what it is to be a minister of the crown.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Now, I wasn't here, but the clerk has just informed me--and it wasn't him who ruled it out of order at the time, it was actually the chair--that the reason it was ruled out of order was that it was not within the mandate of this committee.
Mr. Abbott, I will let you finish the question. Go ahead.
7:40 p.m.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you very much.
I guess, as they say, if we're going to be having accountability, which I think all Canadians deserve--we don't question that--you have stepped up, and you are holding yourself in a totally transparent way in being accountable.
My question, if you'll permit me, is a very personal question. How does it make you feel to be on the spot when other people in the system supposedly administering the accountability don't seem to be taking the same stand?
7:40 p.m.
As an Individual
If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to say two or three things.
The first is that this is deeply embarrassing for me. I place the greatest value on this place and various members. I'm deeply apologetic for making a mistake.
I can't judge what other folks do. I can only tell you what I did. I felt that my actions were inappropriate. They caused a breach of the rules of this House, and I took them to be disrespectful to the members of the House. I apologize.
I should point out that, as a member of the bar, I also find myself under ethical guidelines that may be different from other folks'. Speaking for myself, I thought what I had done was entirely inappropriate. I'm sorry that it happened. It's embarrassing to me that it happened under my watch, and I apologize to you and to other members of Parliament.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
That concludes, members, the first round. We're now going to go to the second round.
We're going to start with Dr. Bennett.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Thank you again.
Minister Kenney has two offices, is that correct? He has a parliamentary office on the Hill as well as a ministerial office?
7:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I think the minister has at least three offices. He has one in Calgary as well. I think he may have another one as the political minister for southern Alberta. I have to admit I find myself a bit at a loss speaking to....
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Usually the parliamentary work gets done in the parliamentary office, the ministerial work gets done in the ministerial office, and the non-exempt staff who are paid by the department are precluded from doing work that isn't about the job of the minister in the department.
As to whatever pads of stationery were around, it seems wrong that the parliamentary office stationery was in the minister's office. You would be asking members of the staff who are paid by the Department of Immigration to be doing parliamentary work or casework for the member in the riding. It is clear how you can set this up so these mistakes don't happen.
I would like to know how many exempt staff and non-exempt staff knew about this letter going out. Perhaps you could list them for us. We want to know who knew about this letter going out—the chief of staff, the director of communications, Conservative campaign manager Irving Gerstein, the Prime Minister's office, and so forth. We also want to know how many non-exempt staff—admin assistants paid by the department, not paid as exempt staff—were involved in the preparation of this comprehensive deck that was being sent out to the Conservative Alberta members.