Evidence of meeting #9 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Denise Benoit  Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

This is meeting nine of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), is the main estimates for 2010-2011, vote 15 under Parliament, referred to the committee on Wednesday, March 3, 2010.

Our witnesses this morning, from the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, are Mary Dawson, who is the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner; Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, assistant commissioner, advisory and compliance; and Denise Benoit, director, corporate management.

Commissioner, with your colleagues, welcome to the committee. I apologize for the delay in starting the meeting, so we won't delay any further. I understand you have opening remarks, and we'll hear from you now.

11:40 a.m.

Mary Dawson Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today as you consider our budgetary submission for the 2010-11 Main Estimates.

I'm accompanied at the table by Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, assistant commissioner for advisory and compliance, and Denise Benoit, director of corporate management. They will assist me in answering your questions after my opening remarks.

I see there are a number of new members of this committee. For their benefit and to refresh the memory of the others, I will begin by providing a brief overview of the mandate and work of the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. Then I will outline how our renewed budget will help us continue our work as the current fiscal year unfolds.

As most of you know, my office administers the conflict of interest code for members of the House of Commons and the Conflict of Interest Act for public office holders. These two regimes seek to ensure that public officials, whether elected or appointed, are not in a conflict of interest. I'm also mandated to provide confidential advice to the Prime Minister about conflict of interest and ethics issues.

My staff and I review confidential reports of assets, liabilities, and activities, maintain public registries of publicly declarable information, and investigate and report on cases of alleged non-compliance. Our primary goal is prevention. Our focus is not on penalizing people for non-compliance, but on assisting them to comply with the code and the act.

Through the hard work of my staff, we have eliminated what was once a large backlog of members and public office holders who were not in compliance. In addition, in recent months we've been putting a great deal of effort into working on several high-profile investigations, and my intent is that my reports on these will be released in the near future.

For the last three years my office has been allocated annual funds of $7.1 million. Although we lapsed a portion of funds in each of the previous two years, each year we lapse less funding as we move forward with the organization and staffing of my office. We're very close now to being fully staffed and expect to utilize most of our allocation for 2010-11.

Mindful of the budgetary constraints facing the government, my office has already implemented measures consistent with those required of departments and agencies. These include capping travel, conference, and hospitality expenditures, as well as limiting salary increases to 1.5%. Those increases will be absorbed within our existing budgetary envelope, as we're not seeking an increase to the $7.1 million we were allocated in each of the last two fiscal years. Salaries and benefits account for the largest single component, some $5.3 million of our budget.

In the years ahead, my office will continue to focus on helping members of the House of Commons and public office holders to comply with their obligations under the members code and the Conflict of Interest Act. Our advisors will continue to assist them in setting up arrangements involving trusts, which are quite unique in many cases, and advising on outside activities. These arrangements are subject to review each year. Our advisors will continue to respond to inquiries from those who are covered by the code or the act, and to take a number of other steps through meetings, correspondence, guidelines, and information notices to help members and public office holders understand how the code or the act applies to their specific situations.

We will pursue, as we have in the past, a wide range of communications, education, and outreach activities and initiatives. For example, my staff and I will continue to meet with ministerial staff, make additional presentations to party caucuses, and provide advisory opinions on issues of general application to members and public office holders. We will also continue to make improvements to the way we provide information to our clients, in particular, through our website.

We are taking steps to strengthen our ties with organizations in other jurisdictions. My office has a new coordination role in the Canadian Conflict of Interest Network, which includes federal, provincial, and territorial commissioners; and we're continuing our involvement with the U.S.-based Council on Governmental Ethics Laws, known as COGEL.

I hope to continue to work with Parliament and its committees to make improvements to the rules I'm administering, or make them more widely understood. For example, last year my office advised the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on possible amendments to the code relating to gifts and other benefits. This resulted in significant changes to the code. At the request of the committee, we have recently submitted proposals to it for improvements to the code in the areas of disclosures and inquiries.

As you can appreciate, there's an element of unpredictability associated with the operations of my office. In recent months we've been involved with a number of investigations, each of which must be given due process, and some of which have been quite complex. Of course, I have no way of anticipating how many investigations we will deal with from year to year or the amount of work each will involve.

Mr. Chair, I would like to conclude my opening remarks by restating my belief that our proposed budget for 2010-2011 will be sufficient for our needs as they currently stand. Within it, we will be able to sustain our efforts to ensure that members and public office holders meet their respective obligations under Canada's conflict of interest regimes.

Thank you once again for inviting me to come before the Committee to discuss the Main Estimates. I will now be happy to answer any questions you may have.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you, Commissioner.

I want to move directly to questions.

Ms. Foote, please.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you.

And thank you, Mrs. Dawson, for appearing as a witnesses before the committee this morning.

I'm sure you understand why we would have questions about one of the high-profile cases that you just referenced. It's quoted in the media that the Prime Minister's Office did not give you anything worth investigating concerning a former cabinet minister. Yet the PM has kicked that same cabinet minister out of cabinet and out of caucus because of what he considers to be serious allegations, which he referred not only to your office but also to the RCMP. Can you enlighten us as to the difference of opinion between you and the Prime Minister, given your actions and his?

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I don't know that there's a difference of opinion.

I received a reference to the matter, a very brief reference, and it was not enough to constitute a request under my act. I looked into some of what I saw, and I did not have enough information to constitute reasonable grounds to proceed with an investigation at that time.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

May I ask what that reference was?

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

It was a reference, as I think has been indicated in the media, to this Mr. Snowdy, but there was very little else that I had to work on.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Can I ask you then, if as a member of Parliament I came to you looking for advice because I wanted or was asked to write a letter in support of a company in which my husband had some financial dealings, what would your advice to me be?

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I would have to look at the specifics of the circumstances and see whether there was anything special about that company. An MP traditionally writes letters of recommendation for people in the constituency, so I would simply look at the circumstances.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

If it involved my spouse, who had a financial interest in that company....

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I'd probably talk to you about it.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

What would your advice be?

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

It would depend on what you told me when I phoned you to discuss the matter.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Okay, this is what I'm telling you. As an MP, I've been asked to write a letter on behalf of a company in which my husband has a financial interest. What would your advice be in terms of my writing that letter?

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I would probably advise against it.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

This is an issue that's garnered national interest. There's a lot in the media about this. Do you not feel that with all of the attention being given to this particular issue, it warrants an investigation by you, as a commissioner of conflict of interest?

11:45 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I should direct you to the rules of the conflict of interest code--the code, not the act; the MPs' code.

There's a very specific set of conditions that have to lead up to an inquiry under the code. There are two ways of getting in an inquiry. It's an inquiry under the code, an examination under the act, and you always have to remember there's a difference. Under the code, the first thing that happens is, if I receive a request from a member, I have to determine whether that request contains reasonable grounds to suggest that somebody has not complied with the code. If I do think that's the case, I would then notify the person the complaint relates to, and the very first thing that happens is they have 30 days to get back to me to let me know what they have to say about the matter. When that's up, I have 15 days to look into it as best I can, and to decide under a preliminary investigation whether there are grounds to proceed to a formal inquiry. So no inquiry can take place under the code until about 45 days have elapsed.

During that 45 days, it would not be appropriate to comment on what I'm doing. My activities are confidential.

What confuses these things is that sometimes requests come in to me under both the code and the act. The act has a different set of rules entirely. Under the act, if a request with reasonable grounds has come in to me—we call it an examination under the act—the examination would commence with my notifying the relevant person.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Okay.

Has an examination commenced? Are you looking into this issue now?

11:50 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

May I ask why? Given the criteria that you've just outlined under the code and the act, why is it that you aren't looking into this particular issue?

11:50 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I'm certainly looking into what people have told me, and I'm thinking about it, but there's no such thing as a half-hour turnaround on a decision as to what to do about something. It takes a day or two to think about.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Okay.

It was April 15 that you were quoted in the media, actually, as having one referral from the PM, so it's been longer than a day and a bit. So when can we expect you to look into it, given the magnitude of interest in this file?

11:50 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

The thing is, a couple of different issues have been raised here. The matters that were raised surrounding the Prime Minister's letter related to something completely different from what is emerging very recently. The Prime Minister's letter didn't suggest anything about what's going on in the last day or two.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

May I ask what the Prime Minister's letter referred to then, in the referral to you? It says here that you received one referral from the PM.

11:50 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner