Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Eppo Maertens  Acting Assistant Commissioner, Learning and Communications, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé  Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

I am calling this meeting to order. I will remind the television camera operators that they need to leave the room, please.

I'll call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is the fifth committee meeting briefing with the Information, Privacy, Lobbying and Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

Today we have with us the Commissioner of Conflict of Interest and Ethics, Ms. Mary Dawson. With her we have Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, who is the assistant commissioner, advisory and compliance, and also Eppo Maertens, director, reports and investigations. Welcome. Thank you very much for attending.

We will begin our meeting with the statement from the commissioner for 10 minutes, please.

8:45 a.m.

Mary Dawson Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you, Madam Vice-Chair. I am pleased to have this opportunity to brief you on my mandate and role, and to update you on some of the issues my office has been dealing with.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the committee's new members. Your committee has oversight responsibility for my office and reviews its annual spending estimates, as well as matters related to my reports under the Conflict of Interest Act. I look forward to working with all of you.

I understand there was a motion before the committee on Tuesday on a particular issue that members would like to discuss with me today. I will address that shortly, but first I have some other more general remarks.

As Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, I am an independent officer of Parliament. I report to Parliament through the Speaker of the House of Commons on the activities of my office. I'm responsible for helping appointed and elected officials prevent and avoid conflicts of interest.

I administer two regimes: the Conflict of Interest Act for public office holders and the conflict of interest code for members of the House of Commons. The latter is overseen by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Both regimes set out obligations and rules to prevent real or potential conflicts between private and public interests. The committee's reviewing function relates to my responsibilities regarding public office holders under the Conflict of Interest Act.

The act applies to some 2,800 public office holders. More than half of those covered by the act--mostly part-time members of federal boards, commissions, and tribunals, and any part-time ministerial staff--are subject only to its core set of conflict of interest and post-employment rules. About 1,100 public office holders are designated as reporting public office holders. They are also subject to the act's reporting and public disclosure provisions, as well as prohibitions against outside activities and holding controlled assets. These individuals include ministers, parliamentary secretaries, ministerial staff, and full-time Governor in Council appointees such as deputy ministers, heads of crown corporations, and members of federal boards. In some instances, the act sets out additional requirements for reporting public office holders who are ministers or parliamentary secretaries as well.

My activities under the act and the code are similar. My office advises public office holders and members about how to comply with the act and the code. Last year, my office received over 1,600 calls for advice from reporting public office holders and about 500 from MPs.

We review the confidential reports from reporting public office holders and MPs on matters such as assets, liabilities, and activities, and we maintain public registries of publicly declarable information. We also investigate possible contraventions of the act and the code. Under the act, I can also impose administrative monetary penalties up to $500 on reporting public office holders who fail to meet certain reporting requirements of the act.

The Parliament of Canada Act requires that I present two separate annual reports to Parliament by June 30 each year. One relates to the administration of the Conflict of Interest Act, and it's referred to your committee. The other relates to the administration of the conflict of interest code for members, and it's referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Under the code I'm also required to prepare a list of sponsored travel by members and submit it for tabling in the House of Commons by March 31 of each year. I submit my reports on my examinations under the act to the Prime Minister, and I submit my reports on my inquiries under the code to the House of Commons. All of these reports are made public.

Since my appointment I've released 13 investigation reports: eight under the act and five under the code. In these reports, when appropriate, I take the opportunity to point out gaps in the regimes and comment more broadly on the matter under review, if I believe it has the potential to diminish public confidence in the integrity of elected public officials and the governing institutions they represent.

I've done so, for instance, in relation to the use of partisan identifiers in government announcements and the involvement of lobbyists and other stakeholders in political fundraising. I've also put in place the people, systems, processes, and procedures to help public office holders and members of the House of Commons comply with the act and the code.

I've organized my office into several divisions. The advisory and compliance division is the largest, accounting for about a third of the 49 positions in my office. They provide confidential advice to public office holders and members, receive their confidential disclosures and maintain internal records of this information, and administer a system of public disclosure. As you've heard, Lyne Robinson-Dalpé is the director who looks after that.

These activities are supported by proactive research and communications initiatives coordinated by the policy research and communications division. That division also contributes to policy development, compiles research, and coordinates our dealings with Parliament, including presentations to the caucuses of parties represented in the House of Commons. That's a relatively new part of my office, although the functions have been there before.

Staff in our reports and investigations division investigate alleged contraventions of the act and the code. They're responsible for reports on those investigations, and they coordinate the preparation of my annual reports.

The director of that section is Eppo Maertens, sitting on my right.

Our legal services division provides strategic legal advice on all facets of my office work and plays an integral role in conducting investigations and preparing investigation reports.

The corporate management division ensures that we have effective internal procedures and management systems overseeing the office budget, facilities management, procurement, and human resources.

My budget of $7.1 million has remained unchanged for the last three fiscal years and has been sufficient to support a staff complement of 50. However, as the number of investigations continues to grow, I may need more resources for this function, which would require an increase in my budget.

My office has continued to be as transparent as possible. For example, in the past year we have expanded the types of compliance measures that are made public. Going forward, we will further improve the efficiency of our operations and advisory services and continue to enhance client outreach.

As mentioned earlier, I have also, whenever possible, identified improvements that could be made to the act and the code. These are described in my annual reports. For example, reporting public office holders are prohibited from holding controlled assets such as publicly traded securities, and are required to divest any that they hold when they are appointed. No conflict of interest test applies to the divestment requirement, which is unnecessarily onerous for some of the reporting public office holders and costs the taxpayer money, because we reimburse the costs of the trust.

The act's administrative monetary penalty scheme applies only to failures to report certain matters, generally within established deadlines, and not to failures to comply with its substantive provisions. There are no reporting requirements in the act's post-employment provisions for former public office holders in relation to employment undertaken during their cooling-off period.

So those are three examples. A particular challenge I face is that I must administer two regimes that have many similar provisions but also some significant differences. I have suggested that Parliament might wish to consider streamlining them, possibly within one act, with separate provisions for certain classes of individuals. I note that most provinces and territories have one statutory regime that covers both members of the legislative assembly and public office holders.

A legislative review of the Conflict of Interest Act is to be made within five years of its coming into force--that is, by July 2012.

I hope these and other ideas that I will bring forward will be considered in this important process.

Madam Vice-Chair, this has been a very brief overview, but members of the committee can find detailed information in my last annual report and on my office's website.

I'd now like to take the opportunity to address the motion that was adopted by this committee.

Committee members have invited me to discuss the issue of sponsorship at the NDP convention. I can confirm that I received a letter in relation to that issue that did not satisfy the requirement for reasonable grounds for a request for an inquiry under the members' code. I did, however, take the step of requesting further information about the matter from the interim leader of the NDP, Ms. Nycole Turmel. Ms. Turmel forwarded to me her response on behalf of members of her caucus, which I have reviewed. I'm now in the process of preparing response letters to the interested members, which will be sent in the coming days.

As well, I am of the view that this matter may fall within the jurisdiction of Elections Canada. For this reason, I forwarded the first letter that I received from Mr. Del Mastro to the Commissioner of Elections Canada.

In light of my ongoing review of this matter and the confidentiality of my deliberations, I will have no further comments at this time.

I thank the committee for its attention, and will be pleased to answer any questions on my presentation.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Thank you very much, Ms. Dawson. We certainly appreciate the overview you've given us this morning. As you pointed out, we do have several new members of the committee, so I'm sure you'll get some interesting questions.

We will start our first round of seven minutes with Mr. Angus.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, honourable Chair, and thank you, Ms. Dawson, for coming. I have great respect for your work. I read your reports. I think the role of an independent commissioner for Parliament is essential for ensuring that we have democratic accountability.

I have to begin by asking...because the reason so many of the media are here today is because of Mr. Del Mastro's investigation into the NDP convention. I see that he wrote you a letter asking for an investigation and that you stated that this does not satisfy the requirement of reasonable grounds for a request for an inquiry.

Did you forward that letter to Mr. Del Mastro?

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

So Mr. Del Mastro was aware that this is not reasonable grounds for inquiry. He's received that letter?

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I guess so.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you.

I'm interested because the issue of convention spending, value for money with advertising, how it's done, has been addressed through third-party audits and Elections Canada in 2006, 2008, and in 2011 with Elections Canada. At any time under those conventions did you feel the need to intervene and issue a report on breaches of the act?

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

No, I've never had a request on this matter before. I wasn't there in 2006, of course.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

But has your office ever had to deal with that?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Not to my knowledge.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I see.

In your investigation have you found that any public office holders in the New Democratic Party have broken the act?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Sorry, in what regard?

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

In regard to Mr. Del Mastro's letter.

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I've never considered the matter before.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

You've never considered the matter. Thank you.

I'm interested because the other day Mr. Del Mastro brought this forward and then would not allow the New Democratic Party to even have witnesses. If he was so interested in this investigation, you'd think he'd want to hear from party office holders, but we were told we weren't allowed to have witnesses. We now see the one witness who says she's already sent him a letter that said there were no reasonable grounds.

I raise this because in your report you talk about the need to establish some norms of accountability and respect so that we don't erode public confidence in our democratic institutions. This isn't the first time this week that Mr. Del Mastro's gone off the rails.

I'd like to point out that in the Ottawa Citizen this morning the top headline is “Judges are above politics, council says”. This week Mr. Del Mastro tried to bring a judge before the committee as part of his war on the CBC. We explained to Mr. Del Mastro at the time that this was a real breach of the committee's role. Also this week Mr. Del Mastro was in The Globe and Mail for having intervened in the provincial election. So that's twice.

I raise this because you point in your work to specific issues in terms of political fundraising. In your report you talk about the problem of political fundraising, but you say that it's with respect to ministers and parliamentary secretaries and that more stringent provisions related to fundraising should be considered.

Would you be talking here about the Rick Dykstra and Minister Lisa Raitt affair?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Those are the cases that raised the issue to my attention, but it's a general comment I'm making. I think there could be some clearer rules that apply to everyone.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I certainly agree, especially with the role of parliamentary secretaries and ministers, who have enormous power if they're using their office to do fundraising activities in a way that isn't befitting of a public office holder.

Could you explain what you found in the Rick Dykstra case?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I'll have to dredge my memory.

Eppo, do you want to speak to that? It would take me a minute to remember.

9 a.m.

Eppo Maertens Acting Assistant Commissioner, Learning and Communications, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Sure.

In the Rick Dykstra case we looked at the role of a member and a public office holder engaged in fundraising activities. We made a number of recommendations--although there was no breach found in that case--with regard to the potential for conflict of interest when a public office holder or a member gets involved in political fundraising. In particular, the concern would be if there were a situation where a parliamentary secretary, minister, or other public office holder was raising funds from an individual with whom they would have, at some point either in the past or the future, some official duties, or be making some official decisions in regard to. So in terms of the observations and the recommendation for guidelines, it was a forward-looking, preventive type of recommendation.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Certainly, and in the case of Lisa Raitt, where we have the cement industry holding fundraisers for her, there would certainly be an obvious question: why would the cement industry be raising money for Ms. Raitt if they weren't expecting a return?

Do you have recommendations? Have you forwarded those recommendations to the government in terms of tightening up their act in terms of how they do their political fundraising? Have they shown any interest in closing these rather egregious loopholes?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

As a matter of fact, around that time the Prime Minister released some guidelines. I'm sure more can be thought about in the area, but some guidelines were released. Recently they were added to the accountable government regime that's administered by the Privy Council Office.

I should say, to complete the picture with respect to the Lisa Raitt case, that the problem wasn't so much the taking part in the meetings when the fundraising was going on; it was the position it was likely to put her in after the fact. What we did immediately with her was put in place a conflict of interest screen, which was made public. That's where the dangers lie. It's what you're laying yourself open to in the future. Of course, there may be something from the past, but there may not.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

A final question. I notice in your report that you say you've experienced significant difficulty in obtaining relevant documents when you're doing your investigations, and that this difficulty seems to be coming from, once again, the cabinet, which would be the ministers and the parliamentary secretaries who are not giving you the information you need. What recommendations do you offer our committee in terms of ensuring we have accountability from these ministers?

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Mr. Angus, your time is up. I will allow Ms. Dawson a very brief answer, please.

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I expect a meeting with officials of the Privy Council Office and officials of the Prime Minister's Office to see what I can do about that situation. I think I should be allowed to see cabinet documents, but I have another problem with the House of Commons' records as well.