Evidence of meeting #69 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Let me go back to academic diplomacy—
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
No, sir. I have three minutes.
Were there reports to the board on the due diligence that was taken on this particular donation?
5:50 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
No. To Morris, it's what I discussed. I said, “Look, this is—”
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Would Morris have provided, in writing, any documents that would have provided an analysis of due diligence on what is one of the most significant gifts—
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
No, it wasn't a significant gift. There were more significant gifts—
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
At the earliest onset of the gift, this was about opening up academic diplomacy in the view—
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
In your time doing your background work on your book, you would have been aware of the Confucius Institute, would you not?
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You're aware of the allegations, or at least some of the public statements, that they were actually a propaganda arm of the Chinese government.
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Yes, especially more recently, absolutely.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Again, they are similar to....
China has a long way to go on civil society organizations, for sure.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Where I'm getting to, sir, is that I don't believe you to be a useful idiot. I think you're somebody who has taken the time to understand and know the culture you're dealing with. I'll still state—and I stated this to Mr. Morris Rosenberg—that it is the west's naïveté in thinking that they will engage in China and somehow change China, and not the other way around, that has brought us to this place.
Again, that's a political statement, not one that's germane to interference.
If you knew about these criticisms of the Confucius Institute, if you knew the Chinese government has an active way of using this type of cultural influence, academic influence, why were you not better prepared at the board level, given the nature of the foundation, given the fact your brother is a prime minister? Why was there not more duty of care at the board level to safeguard yourselves against this?
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
As I said, I was more involved earlier. I barely heard about the Chinese donation until it was time to sign it, whatever the date was. It happened in 2016.
Morris had, and still has, my complete trust as a high-level civil servant who knows how to manage these things, so I felt that we were in good hands.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
In closing, I'll say this, sir. There's probably going to be additional testimony. Some of it will likely conflict with yours. I want to give you the opportunity and invite you to provide back to this committee in writing any rebuttals you might have to that, as well as an expansion on any of those eight points that you feel might provide more clarity around the issues represented here.
Thank you.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green
That concludes our first round of questioning.
We are now into the second round, which we're going to start with five minutes.
Mr. Genuis, you're first for five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
May 3rd, 2023 / 5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Mr. Trudeau.
I know there is a conflict of facts that's come out in your testimony. You've said that Ms. Fournier is wrong and The Globe and Mail is wrong. You've implied disagreements with CSIS as well. The committee and the public are going to have to decide what they believe in terms of the facts.
I've read your book on China and I know you've done a lot of thinking about China. There are two things I find particularly unbelievable in your testimony.
The first is about foreign donations to the Trudeau foundation skyrocketing as soon as your brother became Prime Minister. The allegation isn't that the foundation was taking policy positions, but that people were donating to the foundation with the intention of currying favour with the Prime Minister as a result.
Even without all the other facts, it seems suspicious on the face of it that there was a massive spike in foreign donations as soon as the Prime Minister took office, yet it seems that you're contending this was a coincidence.
The second thing, from what you're saying.... We're talking about different meetings. People are coming to those meetings who are from the consulate or who are affiliated with United Front-backed organizations. You're saying that in every case, they're probably just there for translation.
The implication of your comment, sir, is that there aren't qualified translators available in this country who aren't affiliated with the Chinese government, or that it's somehow normal for apolitical Chinese people in Canada to go to the Chinese government for assistance with translation services.
Isn't that unbelievable?
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
There are two questions there.
First, on the spike in foreign donations, there was no spike in foreign donations. We had a new chair come in at that time, coincidentally. It was John McCall MacBain, a very wealthy and philanthropically inclined gentleman who happens to live in Switzerland and who made a sizable donation. That was the extent of the spike. It was our board chair, a prominent and highly respected Canadian, who made a very generous donation.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I think the numbers will show something different.
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
That's the spike. It has nothing to do with politics.
Your second question, I believe, was—
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Yes, China works that way. The notion of....
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
No, we're not talking about China. We're talking about Canada. We're talking about the idea that if you need a qualified translator between English or French and a Chinese language, it would be normal for people to go to the consulate or a United Front-affiliated organization and ask for help with translation.
Isn't that absurd?
5:55 p.m.
Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
I don't even know whether they were translators. I'm saying you have to take that into account in your understanding of how Mr. Zhang Bin operated as a non-English speaker and non-French speaker—