Finance Committee on March 12th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Mr. McCallum, five minutes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much.

Look, I know from my experience dealing with this same file.... You came in a little after the fact, so you maybe didn't have quite the same exposure. But I was told by the commissioner and his staff repeatedly that hundreds of thousands of people were in a similar position. There's a quote here from an AIM Trimark vice-president that hundreds of thousands of people were in the same position.

I felt very bad for these people, but I was persuaded that I couldn't do for them what I could not do for hundreds of thousands of people. As Mr. Del Mastro was saying, we did provide some assistance within the law, but we didn't provide a blanket remission order the way you did.

So as my first question, if hundreds of thousands of people--the people in your department, at least, would have an order of magnitude--get an average of $1,000 or $10,000 each, you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars or more. Especially when your government's going within $1.3 billion of deficit, have you not considered making any kind of provision against this legal liability?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Well, I'm not aware of these hundreds of thousands you're talking about. Maybe during your time somebody gave you that piece of information, but I can tell you that I have never received any such piece of information. No one has ever estimated how many people, if any others, in the whole country are involved in these circumstances. I have no knowledge whatsoever of any particular number.

As I said, we will meet our requirements. If people come forward with the same circumstances, if they justify remission, they will get remission. But I'm not aware of any large numbers of people.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

So you've never asked your commissioner for an estimate of how many people there are, or you've asked him and he told you he didn't know?

He knew when I was there. It couldn't have changed.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Did you have the same commissioner?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

No, it was a different commissioner. But have you asked him?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

As I recall, I think in passing I did, but no one has ever been able to provide any number whatsoever.

You can come up with any number you want, but I'm just telling you, at this time there is no number in CRA provided to me.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay.

Secondly, in terms of legislation, I agree with the line of questioning that we should have fairness for all through legislation in like circumstances. But I would just point out to you that it would not produce fairness for all unless you produced retroactive tax legislation, because this was a retroactive act. If there's one thing the bureaucracy hates, it's anything retroactive, as I'm sure you know. So I would submit to you, without asking a question, that even if you get that legislation, it won't be on a level playing field with these people, because you're not going to make that legislation retroactive.

Finally, on a question of process, I'm a little bit curious as to how you found out about this. You arrived as minister, you didn't talk to Gary Lunn, and the Canada Revenue Agency didn't want you to do this. So did the Canada Revenue Agency bring you a file and say “Here's the file, but we don't want you to do this”? How did you find out?

I admire ministerial independence to make decisions. I was like that myself in some cases. I admire that. But you don't just make a decision in a vacuum. Some people must have been feeding you at least the basic facts of the case.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

As I said, when I took over the job, at some time—I can't remember the precise date—the commissioner and his staff made me aware of this issue and gave me sort of all the background information about the issue, and ultimately gave me their advice. I basically got it from the commissioner and his staff.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Monsieur Bouchard.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you as well, Minister, for being here with us.

You said you had authorized five remission orders. In your statement, you referred to small amounts, but I see from the order I have here that there are large amounts: $134,834, $183,000, $179,000. There aren't just small amounts; large amounts have been authorized by these orders.

What is the average of the five remission orders you have authorized? Can you give us the average amount remitted?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Yes. I think you can find them in the Canada Gazette. I don't know if these are precise amounts.

By the way, all SDL Optics is one remission order. It's not a number of remission orders.

But on the other ones, for an individual—I'd have to do the math here—it's about $900; for another individual, $31,000; for another individual, about $3,000; and there's another one, on which I don't have the precise amount, affecting quite a number of people in Quebec.

I just don't have the amount here on a piece of paper.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

You also said that you informed the public through the Canada Gazette. In other words, your orders are published in the Canada Gazette. I thought I understood you to say that this was sufficient, in your view. People have to consult the Canada Gazette, and that is how taxpayers are informed.

Why didn't you consider instructing the Canada Revenue Agency, because you are the Minister responsible for it, to adopt uniform practices? Given that the Minister can authorize remission orders, why didn't you order the CRA to refer to that measure in the income tax guide, which is available to all taxpayers?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

I think to date—and maybe you can ask a couple of my predecessors—this government and previous governments have found it sufficient to put it in the Canada Gazette. People in the industry, financial advisers, etc., who read this on a regular basis, aside from politicians and media people, get the information from the Canada Gazette.

It's like appointments. Appointments appear in the Canada Gazette. We don't announce appointments in every newspaper.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

I have one final question to ask.

You said you were not really aware of what was authorized by your predecessors. Undoubtedly, before making a decision, a minister has to seek advice from his or her advisors. Did you ask your advisors what your predecessors did before deciding to sign remission orders?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

As I said, I got the file from the CRA staff. We discussed all the aspects of it. They gave all the implications they could think of and their advice. I don't go to previous ministers and ask them what they would do in that circumstance. I just don't do that. I made my decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Wallace.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I'll be very quick and I'll share my time with Mr. Dykstra.

Of the $25 million in tax money that comes in, how many remission orders do you approve?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

I said since I've been there, since August 14, I've approved five.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Just five in all that time.

My second and final question is on the ombudsman we've now created--the taxpayers' ombudsman. Will they have the ability to recommend or authorize remission orders, or is it still going to lie on your table?

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

The ombudsman's main function is to make sure the CRA lives by a number of these taxpayer bill of rights rules that relate to service. The ombudsman is there to make sure Canadians are served well by CRA. The ombudsman does not get involved in tax as such.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I'll share my time with Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I have a couple of things, Mr. Chair. I realize we're getting to the end.

I know quite a story was written on May 28 during the election of 2004. The member for LaSalle—Émard, the Prime Minister, said to a number of employees from JDS Uniphase that he had already asked finance minister Ralph Goodale to fix this problem. I assume, based on his comments then, that he gave some direction to the former finance minister to correct the problem. It may have been a mistake to say that, because obviously it should have been the revenue minister. I want to find out from you and get on the record whether or not the member for LaSalle—Émard has ever contacted you about this file.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

No politician--not the Prime Minister, not Minister Lunn, not former Prime Minister Martin, not my predecessor--no political person came to me about this file.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I respect your being upfront about this.

Thank you.