Evidence of meeting #49 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
This is truly a fine example of non-partisan work, done in the public interest.
It simply does not make sense that there is such a lack of information in Canada's charitable sector. The issue surrounding foundations really warrants further investigation.
Once again, thank you.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Quickly, Albina, I think I sent you a list of all the organization that want to appear. What's your opinion regarding the ones that don't want to appear, the ones that are not asking to appear?
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
You've had contact with some of them. What's going on out there?
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Why they choose not to appear is not a question I can answer. I've certainly had quite a parade of people come to visit me during the summer, and I've also met with a lot of donors over the summer.
I think the ferocity with which they launched a nationwide campaign against my bill is perhaps more revealing.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Okay. On your amendment...well, it's not even on your amendment. You're asking—I think Mr. Chong spoke to it—that the compensation include salaries, wages, commissions, bonuses, fees, and honoraria. There isn't the third-party aspect in there.
Can we include the third-party aspect? I don't see how we can.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
I'm in favour of anything that gives us even more transparency. I actually kept--
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
But in discussions with the legislative people, I don't see how you can include consulting fees for third parties.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
If an amendment were in order and it would actually increase transparency, I'd be all in favour of it.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
November 29th, 2010 / 4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, Ms. Guarnieri. I am quite impressed by your proposal.
When I was a mayor, I consulted professional fundraising firms as part of a major project that I wanted to undertake in my municipality. At the time, those firms were offering their services in exchange for 15% of all donations collected.
I will follow up with what Mr. Mulcair just said. If we can ensure full transparency with regard to donations and donors, as well as on the amounts that are paid out from the donations... You just gave an example of an organization that paid out 75% of its donations to people who—
raising money than the people who received it.
That is quite shocking. I myself would never have agreed to that. I do not know if they signed that contract in good faith. That said, there are always two sides to every story.
I think that what Mr. Mulcair had to say was rather interesting. If we had accepted the firm's offer, we would have had to pay it nearly $200,000. In the end, we did not accept its offer and decided to do things on a voluntary basis, and things still turned out quite well.
Should such firms also be included in the list? If that had been the case, no one would have been compensated as a result.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
I think it would be a step forward if we knew how much profit the fundraising companies were actually making.
I have a chart that I've distributed to all of the members.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
When I look at this chart, it's almost as if 10 years ago the lights went on and people in the charitable sector decided they were leaving money on the table. I mean, the government says you can keep 35%, maybe even 50%, and costs have been shooting up ever since. The conventional wisdom in the charitable sector is that it's only at 70% that the red flag goes up and you can be sanctioned.
I know the officials are sitting behind me, and I'm certainly interested in hearing what they have to say about this.
If you look at the chart, donations are not even matching GDP; they're up by 15%. Fundraising and administration costs defy gravity. They're actually dwarfing donation growth. And donors are flat. Some of these high-priced fundraising types are certainly taking a lot of money, but they're not earning their money. That's what happens when you don't have reasonable limits anywhere. This is graphic evidence that charities aren't leaving money on the table; they're taking it home, more and more.
I think the responsibility lies with salary secrecy. If we can get around secrecy, and rules that let charities keep between 35% and 70%, we'd be a lot further ahead.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
You mentioned the United States several times during your remarks. What exactly are the rules that apply in the U.S. charitable sector? Have you studied other countries that are comparable to Canada?
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Well, I focused primarily on les États-Unis. The reason I thought more about the United States is that you often hear the argument made by marketers that they can make more money in the United States. Well, in the case of SickKids Foundation, the individual is an American who actually came here to Canada to make his money from one of our charities.
There is far more transparency in the United States than what I'm proposing in my bill—
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
—but my bill is just a baby step towards what I'm hoping is a more significant reform.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Do you have specific examples of U.S. requirements with regard to transparency?
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Albina Guarnieri Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Well, you can actually get fundraising information.
From the companies that take money and run lotteries for you, you can actually obtain that information in the United States. This is a Canadian charity, but you have to go to the United States website to get the information.
