Evidence of meeting #22 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investment.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Nantais  President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association
Blake Goldring  Chairman, Canada Company
Brenda Kenny  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association
Michael Elwood  Chair of the Board of Directors and Vice-President, Marketing, Azure Dynamics, Electric Mobility Canada
Tim Kennedy  Vice-President, Federal Government Affairs, Spectra Energy
Michael Conway  Chief Executive and National President, Financial Executives International Canada
John Mills  Member, Board of Trustees, Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
Janice Price  Chief Executive Officer, Luminato, Toronto Festivals of Arts and Creativity, Festivals and Major Events
Andrew Dunn  Managing Partner, Tax, Deloitte & Touche
Stephen Laskowski  Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Debbie Pearl-Weinberg  General Tax Counsel, Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, Investment Funds Institute of Canada
Lynne Wallace  Chair, Policy Committee, Vaughan Chamber of Commerce
Marg McAlister  Director, Policy and Research, Canadian Home Care Association
Susan Eng  Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Association of Retired Persons
Nadine Henningsen  President, Canadian Caregiver Coalition
Sara Anghel  Executive Director, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
Ferne Downey  National President, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Michael Bach  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Association for Community Living
Richard Joy  Vice-President, Policy and Government Relations, Toronto Board of Trade
David Adams  President, Association of International Automobile Manufacturers of Canada
Tina Kremmidas  Chief Economist, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Patrick Smoke  National Aboriginal Student's Representative, Canadian Federation of Students, National Aboriginal Caucus
Diane Brisebois  President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada
Brent Gilmour  Executive Director, Quality Urban Energy Systems of Tomorrow
Mary Granskou  Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Boreal Initiative
David Raven  Mayor, City of Revelstoke
Éric Dubeau  Executive Director, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
James Haga  Director of Advocacy, Engineers Without Borders Canada
Christina Benty  Mayor, Town of Golden

9:10 a.m.

Chief Executive and National President, Financial Executives International Canada

Michael Conway

Thank you for that question.

One of the things I mentioned in my discussion was the need to look at the spending, because for Canada's current social benefits that everybody treasures, there is an escalating cost driven by demographics. We're not getting any younger, I unfortunately have to note. When you go into the details of the fiscal accounts, you note that there are old age security benefits and health transfers and the like, escalating at a pace far faster than all other spending. We certainly don't want to cut those, so in order to be able to continue to afford Canada's current social benefits we have to be prudent.

The last recessionary cycle put Canada in good stead because it entered in a far better position than many other countries in the G-7. Well, cycles happen, and you could have all the economists in a room and probably they'd all have a different opinion as to when the next downturn is going to be. You correctly point to the dangers in Europe. Business doesn't like uncertainty—that could trigger something else. It's a long way of saying that I think Canada has to maintain fiscal prudence so that it remains in the good position it had going into the last downturn. That's quite important.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

You would agree, then, that our government is following the right economic policy at the current time vis-à-vis other countries?

9:10 a.m.

Chief Executive and National President, Financial Executives International Canada

Michael Conway

Yes, we agree that there should be government's continued commitment to fiscal prudence.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

You have less than 30 seconds.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Ms. Kenny, could you talk a bit about the Keystone XL Pipeline and how that would be of benefit to our country in terms of jobs?

9:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Brenda Kenny

In ten seconds, I will say that it would be very good for jobs in Canada and secure ongoing trading. Let's not forget the quantity of revenue derived from that trade for various governments across the country. That's very important.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Brison.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you for appearing before us today and for your informative presentations.

Some of you have presented changes to the regulatory frameworks, which are incredibly important from a public policy perspective. But since this is a pre-budget consultation, I'm going to focus on more of the fiscal measures this morning.

Mr. Goldring, you've done great service to Canada in your work with Canada Company. The Australian model was first introduced in 2001 and the U.K. model in 1997. You have proposed some combination of the two in terms of a specific public policy ask. Can you provide us with the impacts of these programs in those countries, in order to help us fortify the case for the very specific, and I think very sensible, ask that you have put before the committee?

9:10 a.m.

Chairman, Canada Company

Blake Goldring

Yes, and thank you for the very good question.

Certainly our Commonwealth partners were ahead of us in dealing really with the redressment, making sure that all society bears some of the cost for our reservists when they serve our nation both here and abroad.

In the Australia case, they ended up building a program whereby they apparently gave a cash reimbursement to employers, where in some cases employers actually made money with reservists. In other words, they would actually try to encourage people to become soldiers and sign up, and employers made a profit.

This is not the intent of what we propose. Our proposal is to basically scale it so that smaller employers receive the median wage in Canada. So we take a look at between $50,000 and $60,000 and we say that we will pay a small employer 80% of that—so that the employer is still sharing some of the burden—and we scale down for a very large employer to receive, say, 40% of that median wage. In so doing we will avoid the problem the Australians had.

The British have a far better reimbursement government-rebate-type program and that makes an awful lot of sense. What we are suggesting is that HRSDC perhaps administer this program. That's what we advocate.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Right, and if you could get back to us with the impact of those programs on those countries, recognizing there is a difference between the specific asks, that would be helpful. I appreciate very much your sensible proposal.

I was saying earlier today to Ms. Kenny that over the weekend I was speaking with Hal Kvisle about pipeline issues. And one of the things he reminds us of is that 85% of GHGs are produced more on the consumer, household, and vehicle side and not in the production and processing of fuels.

So that bridges to the electric car discussion and the car discussion in general. I wasn't aware of the specific U.S. $7,500 incentive. And for both your industry and of course the electric car industry, it seems to everyone I'm speaking with that the internal combustion engine is not going to be the way we get about in 20 years or 30 years, and that the electric vehicle is the future. I was in Israel a few weeks ago in Tel Aviv at Shai Agassi's facility there.

In addition to the $7,500 incentive you're proposing.... Is your organization seeking that specific proposal?

9:15 a.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors and Vice-President, Marketing, Azure Dynamics, Electric Mobility Canada

Michael Elwood

No, that's the U.S. proposal. The U.S. tax incentive is $7,500 across every state.

We're proposing a really different type of.... We haven't really put out anything as far as an adoption piece per vehicle. What we've said is that the provinces have been looking after that and that we need to look at something more unified across the country.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Well, I know that Hydro-Québec is looking at....

The problem is that this is where we get into the situation in Canada where we have our energy systems balkanized across the country and it's very difficult from a federal perspective without deep involvement on the provincial side.

I'd like to see a more specific federal financial ask that would help. And I think this is the challenge and an opportunity for both Mr. Nantais' group and your group, Mr. Elwood. It would be nice to have real guidance in terms of what we could put in the federal budget that would help make Canada a global leader in these vehicles of tomorrow.

9:15 a.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors and Vice-President, Marketing, Azure Dynamics, Electric Mobility Canada

Michael Elwood

In two provinces right now, Ontario and Quebec, there are programs for electric vehicles that actually lap the U.S. programs. In both provinces it depends on the battery size of the vehicle, but the maximum in Quebec is $8,000 and the maximum in Ontario is $8,500. We would be happy to submit something.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you.

We will now have Mr. Jean.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for coming today.

On that particular line of questioning, I understand that you were actually the lead in the electric mobility roadway consultation for Canada. Thank you for your service on that. I know it was non-profit, at least for yourself.

Now, how do we compare to other jurisdictions internationally with our technology, after you had that little jaunt across the country looking at our technology?

9:15 a.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors and Vice-President, Marketing, Azure Dynamics, Electric Mobility Canada

Michael Elwood

Thank you very much. It's a great question.

I address this light-heartedly, but the reality is, as you're well aware, that doing a technology road map is an onerous undertaking, and we spent a little bit more than a year and a half doing so. When we submitted it in 2009, it was prior to the American reinvestment act and the stimulus act, and Canada was in a very good position. As companies, technology leaders, we were in a really strong position globally.

In fact, I went to Brazil and I spoke at a conference in Brazil, and the Brazilians, along with about four or five other countries, came to me saying that they applauded us on our road map. They asked us how we were doing on the implementation side of it, which embarrassed me a little bit, but I thanked them very kindly. And the only things the Brazilians did was they added cane sugar and copied. They knocked off our road map. So what we should have done, from a business point of view, is licensed it.

So we really made an impact globally on the road map, but we haven't really implemented it as such in our own country.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I understand that, and that goes on to my next question then. I'd like to focus a little bit on Canada Company, and also on the pipeline, because of course I'm from Fort McMurray, and we do have this resource up there called oil. I'm particularly interested in the Keystone pipeline, but also in the comments made in regard to the aboriginal conservation process. I agree 100% with you that we have to streamline that process for both parties involved, for the people of Canada, as well as for the aboriginals and bands involved. It's a bit of a mess right now, and I think we are working on something like that.

But in particular, how safe is the Keystone pipeline project? We hear rumours, we hear speculation. Look at what's going on in Nigeria, with rivers flowing full of oil, and at conflict after conflict in Russia, where I think 10% to 15% of the oil actually hits the ground before it gets anywhere in the pipes. Do we have these problems in North America? How safe is the oil? How safe is the environment? What are our standards compared to the rest of the world, and compared to 15 or 20 years ago in Canada?

9:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Brenda Kenny

The results are good news for Canadians. We have a pipeline system here that is among the safest in the world. The statistics over the last 20 years have borne that out. It's very, very safe, whether you measure it per kilometre or total number of major incidents, and the safest in the world.

As far as the Keystone, it is compounded by the application of current technologies and very, very advanced protection techniques, so it will be even safer than a normal pipeline. And we have advanced technologies for internal inspection that are helping us continue to make those better over time.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Now, on that—just so people understand—this isn't just a pipe in the ground that sits there and flows oil from some source back and forth. Could you give us an indication of some of the advanced technologies you're talking about?

9:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Brenda Kenny

Well, they're similar to what you've all experienced with medical technologies that give you a chance to get an early detection before there's a problem. Those are the sorts of things we apply inside pipelines today, and we do advance maintenance and integrity programs. We have been able to bring down the number of incidents quite dramatically by doing that.

I want to talk specifically about your question with regard to the oil from Fort McMurray. There have been some allegations by American NGOs. For some reason, they believe bitumen to be dangerous in pipelines, which is patently false. All of their results point in the opposite direction, and the track record of pipelines carrying bitumen shows it is in fact extremely safe. So we've got to be very careful in pipeline safety, and recognize that there are facts and then there are allegations for some hidden cause.

The other thing I would just state for the record is to keep in mind that many of our companies are themselves investing in renewables, and advancing alternatives beyond oil and gas. Any of the long-term energy forecasts point to an active use of those fuels for a long time to come. And certainly, even in terms of this table today, I would personally support many of the requests for incentives. It's this industry that's actually generating hundreds of thousands of jobs and tens of billions in revenue.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I was going to ask the Canada Company just how we get more people to Fort McMurray to work after they've been in the military. That would be my next question.

9:20 a.m.

A voice

Good question.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

It's a great program.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you.

Mr. Marston.

October 31st, 2011 / 9:20 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Goldring, I really appreciate your choice of ties. It gets my attention right away.

I was in the military in the sixties. When I came out in 1965, I was a reservist for a time. I had to give it up because of complications with my employer. So you're right on the mark with that one.

I'm not going to ask you a question. I just had to acknowledge that tie.

Mr. Elwood, I had a person come in to my office recently. He wanted to set up charging stations in Hamilton. He had nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Are we finally getting organized on putting together a plan nationally?