Evidence of meeting #15 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dfo.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sidney Douglas  Cheam First Nation
Robert Janes  Legal Counsel, Cheam First Nation
Lincoln Douglas  K and L Contracting, Cheam First Nation
Chester Douglas  Councillor, Cheam First Nation
Mike Staley  Biologist, Cheam Fishing Authority, Cheam First Nation

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I call the meeting to order, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), on the study of the matters relating to the Cheam First Nation.

I want to welcome our witnesses here, and I'd like to tell my colleagues on the committee that our witnesses were all here at a quarter to, and they were ready to begin. So I appreciate the rest of our members making it here in a timely fashion.

We still have two members who I expect will come along, but just to make sure we have lots of time, I would introduce our witnesses: Chief Sidney Douglas; Chester Douglas; councillor; Ernie Victor, K and L Contracting; Lincoln Douglas, K and L Contracting; Mike Staley, a biologist with the Cheam Fishing Authority; and Robert Janes, legal counsel.

Gentlemen, go ahead with your presentation.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Sidney Douglas Cheam First Nation

Honourable members of Parliament...[Witness speaks in Salish].

Leaders, friends, my name is Sru-ets-lan-ough. I come from Cheam and I thank you for having us here today. On behalf of the council of the Cheam First Nation, I also would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

We would also like to acknowledge the Algonquin people of this area, in whose traditional territory we meet today.

For over 20 years, Cheam has struggled to gain real and effective recognition of our aboriginal rights and title. The struggle has been focused largely on the fishery, where we have faced political and legal fights to see real change. The basic change that we have fought for in recent years and have begun to see is the real respect being given to our people and their desire to make a better life for themselves while continuing to carry on their aboriginal way of life. This struggle has involved all levels of society and has taken place in the boardrooms of DFO, the courtrooms of British Columbia, and on the waters of the Fraser River.

Our people have paid a steep price in these struggles. We have incurred significant costs, and in some cases our people have faced serious legal consequences, in trying to advance the cause of the recognition of our rights and way of life. But if you ask our people, they will tell you that the fight was worth it.

What we want you to hear and understand, as the most important part of our message today, is that because of this hard work, change is now happening where it can do the most good for both Canada and for Cheam, as well as the other Stó:lõ people.

Where before we saw our mutual issues being fought out exclusively in the courtrooms, in recent years we have finally found DFO to be a willing partner, ready to come to the table to work out issues in the spirit of cooperation. We have been able to work through difficult issues through give and take on both sides to find agreed-upon solutions to our long-standing problems. These solutions have not been unprincipled or thoughtless. These solutions have taken into account not only the needs of Cheam, but also the needs of other sectors, including the commercial and the recreational fisheries.

Most importantly, we have worked with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to develop solutions to our common problems on the Fraser that protect the fish and advance the cause of conservation, and even the regrowth of the stocks.

What we hope to do today is dispel some of the myths about Cheam and present to you a clear picture of how Cheam, the other Stó:lõ nations, DFO, and truly representative industry groups have been working together to create a Fraser River fishery that works for everyone and preserves the stocks for future generations.

What we ask is that this committee support the efforts being made by the minister and his officials, Cheam, the Stó:lõ, and the industry to move away from confrontation and litigation as the means for working out the rules for the Fraser River, towards a more cooperative, respectful relationship.

I would like to take a few minutes to give you a picture of how relations between Cheam and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans have changed in recent years. One area of serious contention for many years was the question of whether or not it was appropriate for Cheam members to use drift nets to harvest salmon. This has become as issue as accretion and sediment build-up in our river has rendered many traditional harvesting areas unusable. And our opportunities to harvest in other parts of the river have been limited by increased commercial and recreational use of the river.

For many years, certain special groups campaigned against the use of drift nets, making all sorts of unfounded claims against both Cheam and the equipment. Over the last few years, Cheam has worked with the department to create a regulated and monitored drift net fishery, which is being subjected to rigorous scientific scrutiny by DFO scientists. Cheam is working closely with DFO to make sure these scientific studies are carried out effectively and that the results are used to ensure a science-based approach to the management of our traditional fishery.

So far the results of these efforts have been positive. Our members have had a chance to fish, the department has achieved a meaningful level of cooperation in regulatory and monitoring activities, and a true scientific program has been put in place to protect the fish.

Another area where we have worked closely with the department to change what had been a poor history is in the area of enforcement. Historically relations between Cheam and the department around enforcement issues can be best described as strained. The department's actions were viewed as heavy-handed and unfair, and the department viewed the whole Cheam community as being opposed to it. This led to an unsatisfactory situation for everyone. Cheam members were being needlessly arrested and charged, resulting often in acquittals, while the department was not getting the cooperation from the community and the council, which is essential to effective enforcement and management.

In recent years, Cheam and the department have entered into enforcement agreements that have focused on enhancing communication between the parties on a range of issues. These agreements have allowed the department and Cheam to develop approaches to enforcement that do not pit the department against the community or inflame innocent bystanders. Instead we now see situations where the department is able to respect and protect lawful Cheam fishers, while Cheam is actually able to assist in controlling persons, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal, who are acting outside of the law.

Where a few years ago the presence of a department officials on the Cheam beach would be an act of incitement, for the last few summers department officials have been working on our beach and in our community to monitor salmon harvests, protect lawful fishers, and work to enforce the law against individuals working outside of the rules.

Another development that has been critical to this improvement of relations is the efforts that the Cheam and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans put into developing a fishing plan. Each year, Cheam has attempted to work with the department, subject to limits placed on the local officials by Ottawa, to develop a fishing plan for Cheam. This plan was designed to let both Cheam members and the department know and understand which fisheries are sanctioned by the band and which ones are not. The reality of the fisheries in the modern context is that without close cooperation between DFO and the first nations, neither side knows the rules of the water.

Just as there are cases where Cheam members have been found guilty of fishing unlawfully, so too have there been cases where DFO has been found to have breached its constitutional obligations and to have acted unlawfully in managing the fisheries.

The only way these kinds of problems will be avoided is for DFO and Cheam to work together to develop plans and management regimes that work for everyone. In the end, we ask this committee to encourage and support efforts to create a cooperative and local approach to the management of the fishery. We ask you to help an approach that values the input of local people and local officials, and that is not driven by bureaucrats in Ottawa.

We ask particularly that you not allow your agenda to be driven by special interest groups that promote racial division by throwing around false and misleading labels. We are not here asking for race-based or segregated fisheries. What we are here asking for are fisheries that recognize the uniqueness of aboriginal communities and our legal system and history. We are asking for fisheries management that is sensitive to the complex local needs of both aboriginal and non-aboriginal fisheries.

What we have to leave you with is this. Cheam and the Stó:lõ people are committed to protecting and restoring our communities and way of life. There is much that cannot be recovered, that is lost beneath Chilliwack, Vancouver, Surrey farms, and highways—things that have made the non-aboriginal communities rich. We need to know that in the Government of Canada we will have a willing partner that will stand up for and defend our rights, and that will work with us to develop new, modern solutions to age-old problems in the fisheries. Without that partner, we will all face the old ways of confrontation and judicial intervention. Is it not better for us to choose a new and better path?

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you, Chief Douglas. We certainly appreciate your comments, and we certainly appreciate the idea of cooperation versus confrontation. That works better for everyone.

The other issue that was to be discussed, and I don't know if you have a presentation on that, was the gravel extraction. Was there a separate presentation on that?

11:25 a.m.

Robert Janes Legal Counsel, Cheam First Nation

One of our team members is actually prepared to address the issue of Cheam's involvement in the gravel extraction. I take it this is specifically focused on the issues around the incident involving the fry.

Lincoln Douglas, a mining consultant involved in the gravel extraction business, is prepared to speak directly to that, if you wish.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Okay. Mr. Douglas, do you have a presentation, or do you want to wait and take questions?

11:25 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Cheam First Nation

Robert Janes

I think we could treat that as a question. If you'd like him to explain what Cheam's involvement was, he'd be happy to do so. It's very brief.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Do we want to hear that before we go to witnesses or before we go to our questions?

Yes, go ahead, Mr. Douglas.

11:25 a.m.

Lincoln Douglas K and L Contracting, Cheam First Nation

The Cheam Band has been active in the gravel business for many years. However, on this particular project, Cheam did not do the work at the Big Bar site. That work was done by the province, DFO and the City of Chilliwack, and supervised by DFO and the province. The contractor was a non-aboriginal.

Cheam thought—I'm actually a Cheam band member, as well as a local contractor, and a nephew of both Sid and Chester—that the project was too risky at the time, and it was going to be too costly. There was no funding available then for a crossing. At that point, we had a three-year permit that we were going to be able to exercise if we didn't feel it fit this year, and this year we weren't considering it. At the time, the province saw that the gravel budget wasn't being met. I think they saw that it was important to move ahead on it, and they took it upon themselves to do so.

So at this particular time we are not involved in that project.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you, Mr. Douglas.

We'll go to our first questioner, Mr. Matthews, for ten minutes, please.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if I'll go 10 minutes. Some of my colleagues may want to jump in if I finish before that.

I want to welcome Chief Douglas and his delegation here this morning. It's nice to see you here. Welcome to Ottawa.

Chief, in your June 2006 letter to the committee, you referred to a need to rebuild and restore relationships with three levels of government, and you also said that one of the hardest relationships to rebuild and restore was the relationship with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

I'm wondering if someone could inform the committee what led to a deterioration of relationships with government? And particularly, are there still unresolved and contentious issues with DFO, and if so, what are they?

11:25 a.m.

Cheam First Nation

Chief Sidney Douglas

I guess that one of the things is that most of the B.C. first nations have not signed treaties or given up resources in any agreements with the federal or provincial governments. A lot of our people feel that because of this, the resources still belong to the first nations. With both governments also claiming ownership of the resources, the federal and provincial laws conflict with our thoughts about aboriginal rights.

Further, the last couple of councils felt that there was a better way than fighting in the courts and having confrontations on the river. We felt that neither side is going to be leaving their country, so we have to start negotiating for a better path for all of us.

We have made positive steps in the right direction on both sides, and there will probably still be a few more struggles in the future. But if the government realizes that rather than having unilateral decisions from Ottawa, they go back to our first nations and work with our first nations people to try to create solutions that will be better for everybody, I think we could all advance in a good way.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you very much.

I understand there is a Fraser River aboriginal economic opportunities program. Do members of your first nation participate in that?

11:30 a.m.

Cheam First Nation

Chief Sidney Douglas

Some of our members did participate, but as a band we declined to sign on because it infringed on some of our rights. Some of our members who have spouses in other communities were designated by the other communities to fish under the economic program.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Why don't you participate now?

11:30 a.m.

Cheam First Nation

Chief Sidney Douglas

I just mentioned that some of our members felt that was infringing on our rights. Some of the clauses in there looked more toward the treaty clause, and we're not a treaty band per se.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Was marketing of the fish that were caught an issue for your first nation's people? Is that why you left the program? Or was there any marketing of the fish for people who participated in the program? Let me ask you that, then, because I don't know.

Was there a marketing program? Were there requirements to market the fish if you participated in that program? Did that cause some concern for your people?

11:30 a.m.

Cheam First Nation

Chief Sidney Douglas

I'll go back to the original question. We did not sign on to the economic fishery or the pilot sales agreement because we felt the document was too cumbersome and that it did infringe on our section 35 rights. It contains too much dialogue that would better form part of a treaty document. We are not in a treaty process, and we felt the document for a one-year agreement was just too cumbersome and infringed on our rights too much.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to switch now to the gravel removal issue, if I could.

There are those who say the gravel removal plan really responds to pressure from the aggregate business to provide economical sources of aggregate for the construction industry. Do you agree that this may be what happened here, that this program of removal went ahead as a result of pressure from the construction industry?

11:30 a.m.

Chester Douglas Councillor, Cheam First Nation

I believe there was considerable pressure from the aggregate industry, but there was also considerable pressure to meet a budget that provides safety for the city of Chilliwack, which was basically built on a flat plain and is a high-risk area for flood. That is the main reason it was fast-tracked. There were other bars that were considered upriver and downriver; however, I guess it was more impossible to deal with those ones at that particular time, so the province viewed this one as maybe a more attractive one to get done in this year's annual budget.

11:30 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Cheam First Nation

Robert Janes

If I could just add a little bit to that, it's very important to understand that there are a number of layers to this question. One question is whether there should be gravel removal, and undoubtedly the aggregate business has a role in that. Behind that, it's actually the fact that aggregate is needed for construction, and there's a real shortage of aggregate in the Lower Mainland.

But the bigger question for Cheam, on a day-to-day basis in dealing with DFO and what used to be called Land & Water B.C., is where particular operations should be carried out at particular times. Frankly, that is driven as much as anything by the flood considerations.

In other words, from Cheam's perspective, it would prefer one of two things: either that the aggregate removal happen closer to Powerline Island, closer to its reserves, where there has been historical gravel removal, but where the government doesn't see the same benefits in terms of flood protection; or that there be less gravel removal, because frankly, it creates a large-scale competitor for its dryland aggregate business.

I just want to get across that the Cheam aggregate business is not driving this process. The real issue is that for Chilliwack and other communities in the gravel reach of the Fraser River, there is a real flood control issue. It comes down to either lowering the bottom of the river, raising the top of the dykes, or doing a bit of both. Of course, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans then has a raft of habitat issues attached to it.

I was counsel in their long gravel case in which Lincoln Douglas was charged with respect to a gravel removal operation and acquitted of any charges of destruction of fish habitat. I was involved in that case, and I can tell you that the amount of paper generated around the management of gravel removal and balancing these flooding issues is immense.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you very much.

Just as another question on that, the Big Bar project only received environmental screening. Do you think that because of the potential damage to fish habitat, there should have been a full environmental assessment before that project proceeded?

11:35 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Cheam First Nation

Robert Janes

I know that, at the time, Cheam made submissions to people at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that they had environmental concerns around a number of these proposed gravel operations. Whether a full environmental assessment would have made a difference or not is a bit of an open question. There has been a lot of study of the environmental effects in this area.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good day, gentlemen.

My first question is directed more specifically to Chief Douglas, as I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the situation. So then, if I understand correctly, the problem basically stems from the fact that no one is admitting to a dialogue taking place between nations. The fact that this isn't acknowledged from the outset creates a relationship in which one party is the dominant player.

Am I off base when I say this fundamental relationship creates a host of conflicts or problems at this point in time?

11:35 a.m.

Cheam First Nation

Chief Sidney Douglas

The non-recognition of a lot of our titles and rights does lead to strained relations, and because the points of view from both sides are different, sitting down at the same table and coming to a solution is difficult. But a solution is probably what we need, because our people feel one way and the governments feel another way, which really puts us at different ends of the table per se.