Fisheries Committee on Oct. 19th, 2006

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

Thank you, Mr. Cuzner.

Mr. Asselin.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Good day and welcome to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

I represent the Quebec region, more specifically the North Shore of the St. Lawrence. My riding is home to several Montagnais aboriginal communities.

You've stated on more than one occasion that the aboriginal community that you represent and DFO are at odds over several issues. Dialogue between the parties is more or less good. According to a letter that you sent to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans last June, you'd like to restore relations and work out a sound agreement.

The community and DFO are therefore locked in a dispute. DFO is mainly responsible for managing the resource and ensuring regulatory compliance. However, you've stated on several occasions that you would like DFO to show more flexibility.

Flexibility is hard to assess, because it's not clear where it begins, or where it ends. Can one be too flexible or not flexible enough? How will flexibility affect resource management? How will DFO enforce regulations if it demonstrates flexibility?

What exactly do you mean when you call for greater flexibility on the part of DFO?

[Chief Sidney Douglas]

One of the things we bring to the table about more flexibility is that our people have always felt that the best way to get somewhere is through co-management. Flexibility means having the department realize that a lot of their unilateral decisions weren't good for anybody, and having them be a little more flexible in accepting the fact that there are communities that live right in the local areas.

These communities know the local areas—not only our people, but our brothers and sisters upriver. They're all striving to develop better fish habitat in order to sustain our resources in the future, and we're all part of that. With that flexibility, we're asking the department to look at more co-management strategies not only with us, but with other interests along the river and also out in the marine waters.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I have another brief question. Perhaps you can fill in the details. Despite the good will of your community's band council, do you feel that relations between the community and DFO are improving, or deteriorating? Has the situation improved, or deteriorated, over the past year?

[Chester Douglas]

We've been in conflict with the fishery department and the fishing industry for well over a hundred years, since we've been stripped of the right to partake economically in the fishery. We've fought for it. Our community never did stop fighting, and a lot of our members never did stop selling fish.

I think a lot of the changes that have been made in the last ten or fifteen years within the Department of Fisheries and the fishery program have been a direct result of a lot of the conflict that Cheam has entered into with the department over changes that we see as necessary in the fishery program. There isn't one fishery official who will deny that the changes that were made haven't improved the fishery, haven't provided benefit for all sectors of the fishery. In what we have struggled for, the changes that have been made have benefited everybody.

You talk about flexibility. We're not looking for flexibility. We're looking for equity in the fishery. We feel we deserve a part of that fishery.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

Thank you very much. We're over time here. I've been lenient.

Mr. Stoffer, are you going for a second round?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, as you know, the Prime Minister has indicated that he wishes to have an inquiry on the Fraser River. Do you support the call for an inquiry?

[Chief Sidney Douglas]

We probably don't support an inquiry.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

May I ask why?

[Chief Sidney Douglas]

We feel that in order to have an inquiry into any subject, a lot of funds must be involved. We feel that funds spent in bettering the management and developing better habitat would be more wisely spent.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Okay.

I'll serve this question to you, Mike. As a ballpark figure, how many pounds of fish were caught last year?

[Mike Staley]

The sockeye catch for Cheam was on the order of roughly 20,000 pieces, or 100,000 pounds.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

It was 100,000 pounds.

Again, I had asked Chief Douglas before, and he said fish for food, social, and ceremonial right are already there. Are you aware, sir, of anybody taking some of those fish—as I myself have witnessed from both sides when I lived in B.C., from aboriginal and non-aboriginal people—and going to the back of a Legion or the back of a store and selling some of them out of a plastic bucket and getting two or three dollars apiece for them? Are you aware of any of those transactions happening?

[Mike Staley]

I've heard of them, but I have never witnessed them.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

As a biologist, would that be something you would support, or would you oppose it?

[Mike Staley]

As a biologist, it doesn't really matter. I'm worried about the survival of the fish. Once they're out of the water and dead, they're not going to be able to reproduce.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

You work with the Cheam Band, is that correct?

[Mike Staley]

As well as others, yes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would assume that as a person employed by the Cheam Band, if they're catching x number of pounds of fish for food, social, and ceremonial purposes, and if there are individuals who are not sanctioned by the band but who are circumventing that particular rule, that would be of concern to everybody. What happens then is that you have DFO and non-aboriginal groups and other aboriginal groups, like the Native Brotherhood, saying to back the truck up here because we have a bit of a problem.

If this fish is intended for a certain purpose, then it should not be sold. If there is an opinion about getting into the commercial fishery, then that is a debate that needs to happen, as Chester Douglas indicated. If the Cheam Band wishes to get into the commercial fishery, as he had indicated, then that is something that is debatable. But right now, if individuals are selling fish out of the back of a truck illegally, be they aboriginal or non-aboriginal, shouldn't DFO do everything they can to stop that activity?

[Mike Staley]

I don't need to answer that question. That's not a biology question, so I think others should answer that question.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

All right, I'll pass it on to Chief Douglas.

[Chief Sidney Douglas]

I'll answer that question from a first nations point of view and how we feel about our rights to the resources and everything once we have the resources at home.

Our people were a bartering people and a fish commodity was part of our bartering trade with the nations neighbouring ours. With the evolution of time, the bartering came to a money system. We feel there might be sales among some of our members. They might go and sell fish. None of those sales would be sales sanctioned by the Department of Fisheries, but under our mind of aboriginal rights and title, we feel that because we are a bartering people, we have the right to sell the fish after they've come home to our community.

[Robert Janes]

Sir, just to answer the last part of your question, DFO has a choice about how to deal with it. One way would be to prosecute, which could play out a bunch of ways. It could play with a ruling that there is aboriginal title and they're entitled to sell. Or it could play out like Vanderpeet, with a ruling that there's no commercial sale. Who knows?

The question is whether the money is better spent saying that the better way to deal with it is to work something out going forward. The minister's power is limited ultimately by the constitutional rights, and if they haven't accommodated a right that's out there, then they may find that some court is sorting it out for them.

So to answer your question on the appropriate approach for DFO, that's a really big internal policy debate for DFO.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you very much, Mr. Stoffer. Your time is up.

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate everybody being here today. I find that the discussion is interesting. I know it is of concern to you. That's why you've come.

I think everybody is concerned about the management of the fishery. Over the years, this committee has had a lot of hearings related to it and has written some reports. I've been on the committee for some of that time and absent for other parts.

On the climate we're in today, though, I was curious about something. Earlier, my colleague Peter was asking about the relationship between the Stó:lõ and Cheam. I'm from Vancouver Island and I have a lot of first nations in my community. For those of us who aren't knowledgeable, we hear those terms used interchangeably, so I was glad to hear you start to explain that there are numerous tribes or bands in the area. Cheam is one of the bands, as part of Stó:lõ, is that right?