Fisheries Committee on March 4th, 2008

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

What circumstances would that be?

[Richard Elliot]

I'm going to have to defer to Dr. Reed at this point, but I think he may be able to respond to that.

[Dr. Austin Reed]

Yes.

I don't think it's well understood, the major decline in eelgrass that occurred in the 1930s, which, by the way, didn't affect the James Bay eelgrass beds; it was just the ones on the Atlantic coast. But there were studies done on it maybe 10 or 15 years after specialists on both continents examined the question. I don't think they've come up with a clear indication of just what single factor might have triggered the virulence of that disease during that period. But it would include all of the things we've been talking about here, such as changes in salinity, changes in sedimentation, and various ecological factors such as that. I don't think they've been able to single out any one, or a combination of two or three, factors that would have been responsible for that.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

So really, you say the wasting disease has been at a low level around James Bay, and that's always been the case, even in the 1930s. You're just talking about the devastation on the Atlantic coast.

[Dr. Austin Reed]

I think the disease wasn't well known before this major episode occurred in the 1930s. It was after this that they identified the cause of the decline at that time as being wasting disease. Since then, the plant has recovered partially over most of its range on the Atlantic coast and continues to fluctuate at various levels.

If the plant is tested in the laboratory, they find that the disease is still there, but at very low levels, so the potential for additional declines are there, when the conditions might present themselves again.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

So you don't see that as a major threat in the near future, obviously.

[Richard Elliot]

I think it's a consistent threat.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Right.

Okay, I'm just trying to get a handle on it. So the wasting disease situation around James Bay is not all that crucial to them in the near term. Would I be safe in saying that?

[Dr. Austin Reed]

Well, I think our concern is for the well-being of the migratory bird populations that go through there. If the grass declines because of hydroelectric development or because of a wasting disease, it's essentially the same thing for us. We would be as concerned in one case as we would be in the other.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Leblanc, do you have anything to add?

Then let me go back to the hydroelectric development. That's obviously the major concern right now. Back when the development started, what do you think was the biggest impediment to the eelgrass or the waterfowl populations?

[Dr. Austin Reed]

Prior to the setting up of the dams and the changes in water flow, the impression of specialists at the time was that those eelgrass beds were in very good health and continued to fluctuate at fairly good levels. According to the Hydro-Québec data, which is the only quantitative information we have, the eelgrass showed a decline only after a few years, after the final change in flow or the change in the structures of the dam occurred. As Mr. Penn has described, there has been a continued variation in the amount of water pumped into James Bay from those systems over the past several years.

I guess that was the information that the Cree felt they didn't have. But the major changes caused by putting in the two dams didn't have an immediate effect on the eelgrass, according to the quantitative data that Hydro-Québec gathered on eelgrass. It was only after a few years that a decline was noted.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

What was the major factor in the decline?

[Dr. Austin Reed]

I can't give you an answer. It could be one cause or another. The clearcut picture is that there was a severe decline, similar to the overall decline that occurred in the 1930s. You see this when you look at Hydro-Québec's data for their six stations near the mouth of the La Grande River.

There's another source of information on eelgrass, which comes from qualitative evaluations. Some have been done by the Cree people themselves, and others have been done by Hydro-Québec, which covers a larger part of the James Bay coast. But there are no quantitative data to confirm any changes that the qualitative evaluations would have provided. The only hard data we have pertain to the mouth of the La Grande River.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Everyone understands French. In Mont-Joli, you have to understand French. People in northeastern New Brunswick also understand it. Mr. Reed, you also speak French. For those who had doubts, it is reassuring to see that two departments can work together so easily and diligently, and that pleases me. It must also please the Cree.

I appreciate your expertise and training. Some people have lived in that area all their lives. They often mix with the Indian activists on both the east and west coasts. They get along quite well. Apparently, there is no eelgrass on the west coast of James Bay. It seems there is only sand and mud. According to them, eelgrass could be found mainly on the east coast of James Bay.

You all know that whitefish, which they can eat every day, can be found near those eelgrass beds. As is the case with white fish, the number of geese of different species is declining. Climate change also has to be taken into account. I went to meet them for the first time on June 23, 2004 and I had to wear a winter coat. They made fun of me. I returned in May 2006, with only a light summer jacket, which was quite comfortable. If I am not mistaken, the ice had already become detached from the shore, on May 20, 2006.

You have the scientific means to conduct studies, and that is what they are looking for. They want to have more information so they can bring forward solutions and restore the natural environment to the state it was in prior to the James Bay development.

Given the number of recommendations that were made regarding the impact assessments of the James Bay development, did Hydro-Quebec reject any of those recommendations before developing the project? If not, could you suggest measures to reduce, for example, the water flow that enters the bay and can disturb the river bed, destroy the eelgrass and, at the same time, renders the water murky, thus preventing the eelgrass from developing?

Did you make any recommendations? Could the two departments present Hydro-Quebec with recommendations in that regard?

[Patrice Leblanc]

The panel made two recommendations on that issue. The first one recommends that Environment Canada, Hydro-Quebec and the Cree establish an eelgrass monitoring program. I am not sure that there has been progress on that front. You would have to ask Environment Canada whether such a program was established. Environment Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should come together to consider a proposal for such a monitoring program.

As part of the authorization process under the Fisheries Act, we asked Hydro-Quebec to conduct follow-up monitoring. That is to be done at the hydro-electric station, not in James Bay. The monitoring focuses on water flow and its impact on fish habitat. Hydro-Quebec will have to submit a monitoring plan for the purposes of the assessment by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Would you like to comment on the environment per se? Would you be in a position to make proposals if, for example, you find that the water flow is too strong, disturbs the underwater beds and reduces the light intensity, thus preventing the growth of eelgrass? Can the federal Department of the Environment present Hydro-Quebec with recommendations to reduce the impact of the water flow?

[Richard Elliot]

My understanding is that I'm here to talk primarily about migratory bird populations, and that's really the extent of my personal scientific knowledge, and the same with Dr. Reed.

Our department is responsible for the Migratory Birds Convention Act, and that's really our primary area of interest, the conservation of the waterfowl that depend on these habitats. While we understand the importance of these habitats, we don't have the responsibility directly to respond to the need to manage those habitats. We can identify the importance of doing that and work with our partners in the Cree Nation and within the provincial government, because in most cases, the habitats that our birds depend on fall under the responsibility of the provincial governments.

We would be glad to partner with these agencies, but we're not in a position to take a lead role.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Provencher, you work at the Maurice-Lamontagne Institute where there are all kinds of modern instruments. Could you simulate the intensity of light in the water in James Bay to study its effects on the eelgrass?

[Lizon Provencher]

I certainly could not. That is something physicists do, but I am a biologist. Physicists could surely do that. I also think that there is a lack of data to explain the phenomenon. Among other things, we know the different factors that can affect eelgrass. They have basically all been named: turbidity, ice action, currents and salinity of less than five parts per thousand, which is insufficient for eelgrass. Temperature can also be a factor. All of those factors are important and must be monitored. We have no data on eelgrass salinity and temperature. We are considering a problem where the freshwater is at unusually high levels and contains many irregularities.

I think that those elements have not been measured. We spoke about wasting disease. This pathogen cannot survive in low levels of salinity. We do not even know the levels of salinity in the eelgrass beds. If those levels are regularly under 10 parts per thousand, then that pathogen is not present. It cannot survive in such a low level of salinity.

Therefore, a lot of data still needs to be gathered to link the possible causes and understand the physical aspect of the phenomenon, i.e., the various flow rates and turbidity levels. I would suggest you start with that.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I will now give the floor to my colleague, who is Ms. Provencher's MP.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I do not belong to her.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

There's time for one quick question.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

My question is a follow-up to that of Mr. Lévesque. From what I've gathered, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans does not currently have a program to study what you spoke about. Is that correct?