Evidence of meeting #16 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hydro-québec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roderick Pachano  Cree Nation of Chisasibi
George Lameboy  Cree Nation of Chisasibi
Robbie Tapiatic  Cree Nation of Chisasibi
Robert Kanatewat  Cree Nation of Chisasibi
Alan Penn  Science Advisor, Grand Council of the Crees
Richard Elliot  Director of Wildlife Research, Science and Technology, Department of the Environment
Austin Reed  Scientist emeritus, Department of the Environment
Lizon Provencher  Biologist, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Patrice Leblanc  Director, Habitat Protection and Sustainable Development, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

9:15 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

Well, I guess, to a certain extent, because the first dam or powerhouse is located about 20 miles, 30 kilometres, from the mouth of the river. What you have in the front of our community, which is located maybe about 20 kilometres downstream from that, is that the river freezes and opens up depending on the conditions. What you have is super-cooled water, which instantly freezes if it touches metal. The water is so fast now compared to the size of the river. As I said, it's double now what it was naturally. Especially in the wintertime too, it's more than 10 times in the wintertime, because the water used to flow less. The water more or less is a constant temperature. After it comes out from the turbines, it's not the temperature it used to be before the project. So the water just basically stays the same way.

In some cases, we've had other areas where it has affected the sturgeon...not maybe in our area, but I've seen reports where the sturgeon have spawned in the wrong part of the season because of the water temperature. Instead of spawning in the spring, they would spawn maybe in the fall or late....

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

The mortality rate would be higher, I assume.

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

It recommended that Hydro-Québec perform, in consultation with the Cree, long-term monitoring of the eelgrass beds on the east coast of James Bay for better assessment. The monitoring should include stations located outside of the potential influence areas of in-stream flow modulations from the La Grande complex to establish if this is a factor. In its response, the Government of Canada indicated that Environment Canada would take part in the monitoring with the project’s proponent, as well as with provincial and Cree authorities.

How is that going?

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

When the review committee originally came to our community, we suggested that the monitoring be more than what they ordinarily provide. The purpose of monitoring, in our view, is to do something if it is discovered that something is not right or can potentially be negative in the future. The other party's view on monitoring is to monitor what happens without doing anything--basically to monitor the disappearance, and that's it. I don't think they agree they have an obligation to do something about it if they discover something is....

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Is it the committee itself you're talking about?

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

No. I'm talking about the developer, in this case Hydro-Québec.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Do you feel you have an active role in that?

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

We have not had one to date. We have a monitoring committee that basically deals with all kinds of other issues. But this is not one of the issues that have been identified as being important, as opposed to the exact location where the project is going to be.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

How would you describe your relationship with Hydro-Québec?

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

Right now my relationship with Hydro-Quebec isn't that good because of the difference of opinion and approach on what I understand monitoring is supposed to achieve in this case and what they understand monitoring is supposed to achieve. It's my perception that they only want to do the minimum--basically live up to the letter of the directive and not the spirit or intent of it.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Have you made attempts to engage them in this study and bring them in more? Do you feel they have ignored you, or is that too harsh a word to use?

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

I wouldn't say it's too harsh a word, but I guess it depends upon your perspective.

Mr. Tapiatic is part of that monitoring committee involved in direct discussions with Hydro-Québec, as well as the other communities. Maybe he can answer exactly what that committee does.

9:20 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Robbie Tapiatic

The committee I sit on is called the monitoring committee for the Eastmain-1-A-Sarcelle-Rupert diversion project. Our major role is to report to the chief and council and bring out the concerns of the community.

There are many studies, and not all of them concern our community. I have heard from our people that one of their major concerns is the eelgrass. It affects our livelihood with our migratory geese. There are many concerns, such as increased flow and land erosion that cause the water to not be clear anymore.

Our major role is to disseminate information from Hydro-Québec and vice versa. Whatever concerns the community has I take to the table. I work with five other communities: Mistissini, Nemaska, Waskaganish, Eastmain and Wemindji. We work with Hydro-Québec. SEBJ and the CRA representatives are also on that committee.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Mr. Blais.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I will be very brief. First of all, I would like to welcome you and thank you for being here with us today. Given that it is because of my colleague Yvon that you are here today, I will leave it to him to ask questions.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Good morning to you all. I am pleased to welcome you here and I do hope that we can be of some use to you. Are you getting the interpretation? Roderick, this is the first time I speak to you in French.

I would like you to talk to us about your home prior to the work at James Bay. I am referring to Fort George, and your move to Chisasibi, as well as to how the entrance to the current river compares to your former location. It is said that there were 250 kilometres of eelgrass in the flow of the river. How far from the coast did the eelgrass reach? Robbie, I think it was you who said that hunting and fishing were part of your culture. Clearly, the Cree are not ones to miss the Goose Break.

I would like you to explain that to participants so that they understand the context.

9:25 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Robbie Tapiatic

I'll ask Robert Kanatewat to answer that question.

9:25 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

Robert Kanatewat is a former chief. He was chief when the relocation took place and before that. He's also one of the signatories of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. I'll let him answer part of that question, and I'll finish it for him.

9:25 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Robert Kanatewat

Thank you.

First of all, I would like to go back a little before I respond to your question.

There is one thing that seems to be forgotten. On the river we're talking about, on the natural flow, during the mid-winter--like right now--the velocity of the flow was very minimal in the sense that it hardly flowed. Since the diversion of the rivers and the damming of the river there is a constant flow that passes the village all year round. That causes the disturbance of the waterbed and the mucky waterbed that flows into James Bay.

Before all this happened we used to see an abundance of waterfowl in the fall and even in the spring. Even though they weren't feeding on the eelgrass in the spring, they were feeding on other substances, off the growth of the shoreline. With that, right now, as I have experienced over the years, the mammals that grow under the seabed are declining also, not just the eelgrass; it's everything else. We used to have mussels in that area too, and they're no more, they're all gone. We only see the old shells on the shorelines that have been washed into the shore. Other species, other specks of material that used to grow in the saltwater bed, are declining also, and some of them have completely disappeared. You even see these air pockets, air ducts that are covered with mud. They used to be clear, and nowadays they're covered because of the disturbance of the water flow.

We used to have all sorts of other migratory birds. They're talking about the brant, they're talking about waveys, they're talking about Canada geese and various other species of birds. We used to have these in abundance. Our area had the most abundance along the coast. It went as far as between Eastmain and Wemindji, where the geese used to feed before they migrated south. They went as far as the cape up north. These are the feeding areas where the geese were in abundance in those days, in those years.

For me, without even doing any testing, I've noticed that what causes it is the constant flow of the river. As I said, nowadays it's a constant flow. Before, the velocity of the water would decline a little during the mid-winter. There was hardly any water flow. This didn't disturb the river waterbed, but now it's constantly disturbing it and creating a lot of muck from underneath, where it would go out into the sea and most likely kill every little living thing that was there before. Pretty well nothing really grows on the shores of James Bay, and more or less it's the same thing, I think, in Hudson Bay. In particular it's James Bay that we're concerned about, and partially Hudson Bay.

This is what we miss today, we don't see any waterfowl landing anywhere. This is true, what we have experienced so far.

9:30 a.m.

Cree Nation of Chisasibi

Chief Roderick Pachano

With regard to the rest of the answer, I believe that in 1975, between the Cree and the Inuit, the amount of waterfowl or migratory birds that were taken was something in the order of 120,000 birds. As far as the Cree are concerned, I think we are nowhere near that today, particularly in the fall.

We were recently reminded by the elders before we left that one of the main staples of feasts and celebrations was geese, and we don't do that anymore. There are no more geese being shared in the communities, in community feasts and at community events, even with the elderly and those who cannot hunt for themselves.

I think at one point back in the mid- or early 1970s we had an abundance of geese, so much so that I think we even supplied geese from Chisasibi to a dinner here in Ottawa when the Queen came. I think that was when Mr. Trudeau was the Prime Minister. That's how many geese we had; we were able to share with the rest of Canada, even the Europeans, and nowadays we don't have that many anymore.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Chief.

Mr. Stoffer.

March 4th, 2008 / 9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

I'll pass on the time and listen to more of the questions, thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Okay. I just wanted to show you that you had the opportunity.

Mr. Keddy.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Welcome to our witnesses.

I have a couple of questions.

I don't know if you folks supplied these maps, but I don't see the river. Is that at the top of the map? I'm assuming the top is north. The Chisasibi River?