Fisheries Committee on April 14th, 2008

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

None, but I'll allow Mr. Drew to answer.

[Donald Drew]

He's tight on his own.

With the money coming in to keep those doors open since 1992 we had to get inventive: supply boats, cable ships, cruise ships--you name it, we've done it to keep those doors open. That money goes back to the harbour authority.

For an awful lot of the work we do in these harbour authorities we don't contact the small craft harbours people. We've got four fenders gone, we've got a ladder gone, we need divers.... We have to hire divers. Sometimes we can avail ourselves of government services and at other times we don't; we just go ahead and do it on our own. We do this a lot. If we need lines in the parking lot, we have staff or students, and we have to get them trained. All this money comes out of our general revenue. That money comes back into the facility and goes in for the infrastructure of the facility.

We're all pretty proud of what we have there, and we see ourselves as little town councils in a way, because we're taking care of that for the greater good and for the people coming behind.

We are making a major investment in it. The volunteer is one piece. We all pay fees at the facilities and we've talked about the berthage fees and prices for unloading. We have tour boats operating and they have to pay licence fees. We have processors paying licence fees. The American swordfish boats pay unloading fees per pound. All companies do that; it doesn't matter what it is. Even the Canadian government comes in and ties on and they pay berthage for the coast guard boats. So no one gets a break. Everyone pays.

I will say that we do give one break. If a pleasure boater comes in, one of these transient boats or yachts going around the world and that kind of stuff, we given them their first night for free. We give them a break.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Don.

I would just advise our guests in the back that there's coffee and tea available over here, if you haven't found that yet. Anybody's welcome to that.

It's a great conversation we're having here, I must say; it's very informative. But on Mr. Calkins' questions on harbour authorities, I was a member of the regional harbour authority in my hometown of St. Brides as a business person in the community, not directly involved in the fishery but a member of the regional harbour authority. So it's open to anybody in the community who wants to become a member to assist in any way.

We're going to start our second round now. We are going to go to a man who knows harbours quite well, I'm sure.

Mr. Matthews.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It's nice to be here in your riding.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming and to thank you very much for the volunteer work that you've put in. I know in many cases fish harvesters are also members of harbour authorities, and I guess that's why we've come to talk about fatigue so much, because not only do you spend a day on the water but then you try to manage your harbours and all the other things. So I want to commend you for that.

The topics have been pretty much covered. For us today we looked at three harbours this morning. The main requirement for the first harbour was a breakwater. The second one needed some dredging plus other infrastructure. Then we went up to see Mr. Petten, and looking at his harbour, I wouldn't think he would ever need anything again, but they do. That's the extent and extremes that we saw today, which for me is nothing new, because I come from the south coast and I have different levels of harbours and so on. But it was quite interesting to see the way the chairman had the tour orchestrated. We did three levels, which was very informative.

I just wanted to go on about the safe harbour piece in particular in relation to what Mr. Dalton said when he talked about his five or six harbours. I'm trying to get my own mind around that, because there can be only so many of those, for obvious reasons, funding being perhaps the most important reason. Otherwise everybody would have a safe harbour.

How do you see that process developing? How do small craft harbours, with harbour authorities and other interest groups, decide where safe harbours are strategically located? That seems to be, I think, the biggest challenge for us. How do we decide that? If you had five or six interests or harbours, as you have, and you were to ask them, they'd all think they should have the safe harbour. But how do we evolve and get that way? The demand for the dollars is so great, so how do we ever get there?

[Rom Dalton]

In our area, which is not a big area--it's probably one of the smaller bays--there are not that many harbours. We have a harbour in O'Donnells here and there were a good many dollars spent on it a couple of years ago--I think it was $1.2 million. They put some armour stone and that out, but it's only safe to the point where you can tie on one boat. Once you tie the second boat on and you get strong winds, you start flopping around. So with a small amount of money, that could become a safe harbour for more people, if you tied two on.

When you go into Branch, that's a safe harbour, but not all boats can access Branch. Anyone with larger drafts can't get in there, and once you're in there, you're safe pretty well for the winter. And now you're dealing with Riverhead, which was fighting, because a few years ago they had the wharf on the north side of Riverhead for small crafts only, but nobody was using it, and they were all using the gut, the pond that was safe. Back a few years ago they got permission to change.... They commissioned a wharf on the north side, I believe, and they got a harbour authority to look after the gut. Now, that harbour authority is probably the safest harbour in the bay. I had my boat tied on there for the first time. As I said, I beat in there, but once you're in there, I think you're pretty secure. Any dollars that you spend on Riverhead will be there for good. There's no tide. There's no wind. You can probably tie her on with a shoe string. And it's there for life. The wharf there is not something that will be beaten up or could possibly be knocked down at a later time.

So that's how you determine where the best place is, and we have pretty well only the three places.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

As politicians, we work with harbour authorities, and we're always driving guys like Gary Sooley foolish trying to get money for this community and that community, this harbour and that harbour. It's one hell of a nightmare, really, because everyone feels their requests are so justified--and so they are.

I just want to touch on the self-sufficiency Mr. Calkins talked about. All of you collect fees. All of you have sort of a harbourmaster or supervisor, I guess. Outside of your requirement for infrastructure investment, are you self-sufficient?

[Donald Drew]

I speak for my own harbour authority, and yes, we are. We have been for a long time, with the exception of infrastructure and large projects and certain environmental things. For instance, a couple of years ago we accessed those waste-oil tanks. They came from the department following a request. Generally speaking, though, for infrastructure, we are self-sufficient.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Calkins talked about the mandate or the mission, and he read a piece that said that it wasn't easy at the beginning to get people to buy into the harbour authority program. It was very difficult, but over time it has evolved, and right now, in my estimation, it's a great success story. I really believe that.

Do you ever think we'll get to the stage where we can meet that part of the mission statement that he read? I don't believe we ever will, not in my neck of the woods. We'll never get to the stage where harbour authorities will raise enough money so that they'll be able to take care of the infrastructure requirements and needs that we're talking about today. I don't think that's ever going to happen. So what's your view on that? If you stick by the mission statement and so on, that's what it says, but do you realistically think we'll ever get close to it?

[Donald Drew]

The province has to go to the federal government for joint funding on all infrastructure. The municipality has to go to the province and the federal government for joint funding on infrastructure. I'm going to say it's not realistic to expect the harbour authority to be able to do their infrastructure large projects without help. That's not really feasible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Does anyone else want to make a comment on that?

Mr. Matthews' time is up. We'll go to Mr. Blais again, please.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

A movement has begun in Quebec. I assume that the same movement could occur here, but I'd like to hear your opinion. We could say that people are extremely fed up. I don't know how that can be said otherwise; but it has reached a point where volunteers, wharf authority directors, have had enough with being subjected to people's incessant demands and frustration, year after year.

This movement I'm talking about started in the province of Quebec. Gathering from what has been said by port administrators working in all areas of the Basse-Côte-Nord, the Gaspé and Magdalen Islands, the same message can be distilled from all of their testimonies: if the situation does not change soon, the entire issue is simply going to be put into your hands, because they do not want to be acting as “bumpers”.

You work on the front lines, and are the first to experience this frustration, this anger and disappointment over unmet needs.

Could this feeling, which is also prevalent in Quebec, and which is growing, and may even lead to the mass resignation of harbour authority directors, also arise here?

[Kevin McGrath]

I do not see that happening very quickly. The last time we had elections for the harbour authority, we had something like 13 people run, and there was great interest in the harbour authority in St. Brides.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I just wish to clarify that. This is not necessarily a matter of lack of interest. People want to continue, keep on working, but have the impression that they are just managing an untenable and unsustainable situation. This is exactly why they want the department to assume its responsibilities.

Mr. Drew.

[Donald Drew]

I will use myself as an example. In my own community we've had warring factions, and they've been in the media across the country. Those are our tour boats. The harbour authority, during the last 19 years that we have been operating, has been the mediator in a lot of this between the tour boats, the tour boats and the oil industry, the fish harvesters and the fish farms, the fish harvesters and the oil industry, the fish harvesters and the tour boats. The harbour authority, a group of volunteers in the middle, have been the mediators. If we were gone, the members--federally and provincially--and the small craft harbours directorate would have an ungodly job in this province. We have even gotten involved with archeology because we have an historic site at the bottom of the harbour. We're working on deals between that and the offshore oil.

If you ever want to find people who can juggle, you have four of them here and a thousand more around this province. That's what we're doing every day.

There is a burnout thing there. We have a lot of interest. It seems every time we have an election, we get new people on our board, just as Kevin has mentioned. They are interested, but you do get burnout. I've been there for 19 years, and I think I've been wanting to get a kick in the arse for 19 years, but I have to do it because it's my community. It's my industry, and I want my community to survive.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

What do you think of the movement? What the people of Quebec are doing is setting off an alarm, no more, no less. In a certain way, this is also a cry of desperation over certain situations.

Do you share this frustration?

[Donald Drew]

Yes.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Let us now turn to the ACOA, the federal organization that grants various subsidies. I've learned that over the past years, subsidies have been given to this region in particular. In fact, Mr. Drew talked about the ACOA subsidies earlier.

Have there been subsidies over the years? Was there a moratorium, or will you be able to access supplementary funds once again?

[Donald Drew]

I'll use myself as an example for Bay Bulls. I can't speak for the other communities.

We have never accessed ACOA money for wharf projects. It's an avenue we're going to try, and it's not for fish harvesters' wharves, because those do not qualify. This is for the portion of our facility that's going to be used for pleasure boaters and tour boats. We see it as a two-pronged approach, because we have a fishing part of our structure and then we have a tourism part of our structure. This is where we see ACOA having to play a part.

But we have never accessed any money from ACOA for wharf projects in my own community. I wish we could have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you once again, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, as you know, our chairperson was able to introduce an interim report on small craft harbours in December 2007. Have any of you had a chance to read that report? If you have, what are your comments on it? Did we do a good job? Were there things missing?

Obviously it was an interim report. We are here to have a final report in order to assist the minister, who, as you know, is from Newfoundland and Labrador. We believe he has the same concerns as we do of further investment in small craft harbours, not just here but across the country.

So I want your opinion on that report.

[Donald Drew]

I did go over the report in much detail--not in perfect detail, but some--and it was nice, not just from our side of it but also from the small craft harbours side of it. Gary Sooley is behind me here. We all know every one of Gary's numbers, including his home number, off by heart. But it was nice to actually have on paper what needs to be done and where it needs to go, in a sense. We know that it was interim, and that what follows will be very important.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Gentlemen, you have indicated that you have challenges through ACOA. In Nova Scotia they have accessed some ACOA money by claiming on the economic side, such as the number of jobs created. Sometimes Service Canada will assist in workers' training and paying for some of the wages, and sometimes ACOA will for the roads going to and from the wharves. I would recommend that you try that again and see where they can be of assistance in terms of the economic value of that.

There's one question I haven't asked yet: is the province in any way, shape, or form assisting small craft harbours or the authorities with any kind of assistance whatsoever?

[Kevin McGrath]

Yes. We might get a provincial grant of $3,000 per season. That's what we obtain. You might get that for freshwater supply or saltwater supply or something like that.

[Donald Drew]

I'm going to say no, not in about ten years. We used to receive the same thing. We haven't availed ourselves of it since becoming somewhat self-sufficient.