Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Maybe I read it in Newfanese. I'll try English instead this time, okay?

That, in the event the last Supply Day for the period ending December 10, 2007 falls on or less than 3 sitting days after December 3, 2007, the Committee rescind the motion of November 14, 2007 with respect to a study of Supplementary Estimates on December 3, 2007 and, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), proceed to consider on that date the Performance Report of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for the period ending March 31, 2007 tabled in the House and referred to the Committee on November 1, 2007, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), and that the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans be called to appear.

Is everybody okay? Does someone want to move to adopt it?

Mr. Blais—now that you understand it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Is there a seconder for that motion?

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Right here.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I'm going to ask Mr. Matthews to take the chair, if he'd be so kind. I have to depart for other business.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

On our small craft harbours business, we'll go to Mr. Byrne for questioning.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a delight to have the three of you here from both organizations to provide some really strong and firsthand expert experience on the management and administration of harbours and harbour authorities in Canada.

I think we're all seized with the reality that the small craft harbours program is extremely vital to an industry that is valued at over $2 billion throughout the country, yet from an infrastructure point of view is facing serious deficits.

You pointed out that there's a lingering rust-out problem, an infrastructure problem. I can tell you that from all sides of this question, all sides of the House, we've heard directly that nothing affects fishing communities more than the quality and character of the harbour infrastructure. Sheila pointed out that the MP for Cardigan riding was extremely effective in making sure that case was made, as was Mr. Blais.

We had a wonderful opportunity to go the Magdalen Islands one year ago on a study related to seals and sealing. We also took Mr. Blais' request and guidance and looked at the harbours throughout the Maggies. We were very impressed with what we saw, but we also recognized that there was a serious deficit there in some of the infrastructure requirements.

Sheila, you mentioned that there were some significant shortfalls in the infrastructure, but you also recognized that you have changing fisheries. The tuna fishery, which is a highly migratory fishery, changes its character almost on an annual basis, depending on migration. Could you describe any changes in the patterns of fisheries that affect congestion and harbour requirements?

Mr. Poirier, could you do the same?

Could you also identify any other characteristics that you have your eye on for future years, such as changes in fleet size, vessel size? The Department of Fisheries and Oceans just came out with a new policy that allows a significant change to the structure of the cubic number—the size of vessels. Do you anticipate that a 38-foot vessel—or the 45-foot vessel, which is your primary customer—is going to change in the future? If so, how will it affect your harbour infrastructure and your future needs?

[Sheila Eastman]

I guess I'll go first.

I don't anticipate vessel size affecting those 44 harbour authorities on Prince Edward Island. You have to remember that on top of those 44, we also have those four big harbours that used to be Transport Canada harbours, the deepwater ports, and most of the bigger vessels—the draggers and those types of things—are at those.

I don't anticipate our size getting too much bigger. I think maybe we've actually come to the balance-out point, because out of 93, I only have three boats left to hit 44/11. When they hit, it's going to squeeze me up for room again, but that will be it.

I think if I can come to the point that I can have enough room to safely berth those, I don't need.... I can always use extra, because I'm adjacent to the fishing grounds, but the answer to that question is no. I think that in a lot of the harbours in P.E.I., the boats are as big as they're going to get.

Your first question was on the methods of fishing and what trends may be coming down the line at us.

One of the things we have been looking at—but we really are stumped as to where to go with it at North Lake—has to do with our actual adjacency to the north shore fishing grounds and with an aboriginal fleet, especially, that fishes out of Surrey. We would love to have them. Other than their berthage, it would actually allow us to produce revenue for ourselves by charging them, as they are charged in other places, a fee to unload. It would be a percentage of a cent per pound to unload their crab. We are much closer to the crab grounds than Surrey is. We could save them anywhere from an hour and a half to three hours of steam time if they could actually berth at North Lake versus having to go to Surrey. Their boats are virtually the same size as ours. The problem is that we haven't got the facilities to put them in.

I have, God willing, a proposal in for an expansion on a bullpen, and if that were to happen, I could do that. It would in turn increase my revenue, and allow me to be a little more self-sufficient.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

We're over time. I know you wanted Mr. Poirier to answer as well; I think we have loads of time this afternoon, by the look of it, so we'll go to Mr. Lévesque next, and then we'll have lots of time to come back to you, if you don't mind.

Go ahead, Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Prince Edward Island is in a privileged situation with respect to collecting rock for breakwaters, which is not the case for the Magdalen Islands where the situation is much more difficult. However, you stated that $1.5 million is allocated for dredging for the whole of Quebec, of which $800,000 only goes to the islands.

I don't know if you have assessed the construction costs for seawalls in your ports. I am wondering if once the seawalls were built, you would then be able to save enough money out of that annual $800,000 to put into dredging. Building seawalls will reduce the cost of dredging and would protect your port infrastructures, but how many years would it take to recover the construction costs for those seawalls? Obviously if you have a breakwater and a seawall, your wharfs will be significantly protected and will last longer.

Do you have any studies on that?

[Léonard Poirier]

You are absolutely right. You talked about preserving our infrastructures. Those future breakwaters would most certainly protect or prolong their useful life. With respect to the costs, I mentioned earlier that it would be around $800,000 but that is increasing. If those breakwaters do not result in a reduction in that $800,000 cost, then at least they would prevent future budgets from being used for more dredging.

We in the Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine feel we do not have the necessary resources to undertake a cost study. I imagine that a recommendation on that would have to be made to Fisheries and Oceans Canada for our region, Quebec. The department must have that kind of study. Otherwise we could ask it to undertake one.

I would like to add a comment in response to a question that was put previously. Without trying to start a debate, I would like to point out that when Quebec's budgets are calculated, the formula that is used includes certain criteria such as the size of the fleet, because we are talking about vessel size. In Quebec, and especially in the Magdalen Islands, we significantly downsized our vessels in the 1980s and the 1990s. Our downsizing has been done, contrary to some other regions. I am not sure, therefore, that this is reflected in criterion no 2 which deals with fleet size. I'm not sure that an adjustment was actually made. Once again, I am not here to provoke a debate, but I do think there should be consideration for the fact that we undertook significant downsizing, contrary to other regions, elsewhere in the Maritimes and even in the Gaspé.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

You may have a short question, yes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Fine. You referred to 9 ports and 400 vessels. Does that last number include recreational fishery and recreational boating in your ports?

[Léonard Poirier]

No, it refers only to the fishing vessels.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

Thank you.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to thank everybody for coming to testify before the committee here today. I'm certainly finding the presentations very interesting.

One thing that was brought up—I believe it was by Mr. Desrape—that I thought was very interesting, and I don't think I've heard that perspective before at this committee, dealt with the number of wharves or harbours for fishermen to come in and the effect that the fisheries policy had on that. You mentioned a competitive fishery. As the fleet of fishing boats moves around, it puts pressures on various wharves because of the nature of the competitive fishery.

Could you expand on the effect that policy has and do you have an opinion about maybe a quota-type system that is not so time-based, or whatever the case might be, to help illuminate for me, as a member of this committee, what might actually take some of the burden off the small craft harbours based on a fisheries management policy?

[Mario Desrape]

The fishery being what it is, Fisheries and Oceans Canada manages it this way. I have no solution. However, we have to understand that small craft harbours have problems that are not just seasonal. The problems may increase during some periods, but many harbours have problems throughout the year; they are crowded throughout the year. In some periods, they may not even be accessible at all, something that causes even more problems.

In answer to your question, I don't have a solution. Many harbour authorities have defended the way they manage their facilities, but as I said—and we often hear this—many ports are crowded all year. Others are generally less crowded, but become crowded at certain times of the year. We have to be aware of the problem.

We are talking about harbour authorities. Of course, we pay top wharfage, but when you travel between two or three harbours a season, it all adds up. Here is what I am coming to. The issue was raised a little earlier. Harbour authorities do very good work within the system, in my view. To sell harbour authorities to Canadian fishers—particularly fishers in the Magdalen Islands—the current government has said very clearly that we needed to work with harbour authorities, and that it would be there when we needed it for major investment. The government said that we had every interest in working with them, that our interests would be looked after and that everything would be fine. The fishers accepted that in good faith. Port authorities are very good about minor work, facilities are very clean, and power, power outlets and small jobs are all dealt with and work very well. However, we should not let that make us believe that fishers can afford secure harbours, and that sort of thing. It's unthinkable. In any case, that is not the purpose of the exercise. I should tell you that some harbour authorities often feel quite alone, and perhaps even forgotten. We have every interest in trying to invest more in small craft harbours.

Thank you.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I appreciate that. That's what I'm getting at.

Ms. Eastman, as somebody who directly works at a harbour and under the auspices of a harbour authority, I have the same question. Are there any issues regarding those types of fisheries, a competitive fishery versus a quota fishery, that might help this committee?

[Sheila Eastman]

No, I don't really think that it makes any difference. But perhaps I can make one suggestion as to something that might be done with harbour authorities and through small crafts. We've talked a bit this afternoon about trying to find solutions to problems, trying to find solutions to infilling, siltation, and breakwaters. Part of the problem with small crafts is that we can't access the funds to do those studies because we're eating into the very dollars we need to fix the wharf. Is there another government department that has some type of an innovation fund that we could look to in order to fund some of these studies so that we're not taking our “mortar and brick” dollars, pardon the term, to fund studies into tidal patterns and erosion and siltations?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just as point of clarification--and I don't mean to take this any further--I believe Mr. Lévesque referred to Prince Edward Island being fortunate in having a lot of rip-rap or other building materials like that. My visit to Prince Edward Island did not indicate that was the case at all. I had some very specific questions for some of the harbour authorities and fishermen there, and the breakwaters were made out of timber because there simply wasn't access to those kinds of construction materials, which poses another problem.

I just want to give you an opportunity to clarify if that's indeed the case.

[Sheila Eastman]

Thank you very much,

Yes, in fact every piece of stone that is on Prince Edward Island that is any colour but red has been brought in from Nova Scotia, and we use lots of it. We have nothing we can commit on our own there.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bill Matthews]

Thank you very much.

We've been through twice. Is it the wish of the committee to go through again? We have time and I don't mind. If members have a question or two, we can continue.