Evidence of meeting #25 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claire Dansereau  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Loyola Sullivan  Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Gilles Gauthier  Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call the meeting to order.

This morning we're pleased to have with us the Honourable Gail Shea, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

Minister, we appreciate your coming this morning to discuss the events leading up to the European Union ban on Canadian seal products.

At this point, I'm sure you're quite familiar with the proceedings of this committee and the time constraints we are accustomed to. If you have any opening comments, I would ask you to try to confine them to about 10 minutes. We have a timer that will indicate when time is expired. The members have time constraints around asking questions, and answers are within those same constraints. If you hear the beeping sound, I would ask that you please try to wind up your comments in a timely fashion.

Minister, I turn the floor over to you for opening comments. I would also appreciate it if you would introduce those accompanying you.

11:15 a.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure to be here today. I want to start by introducing the people I have with me here at the table. Claire Dansereau is the deputy minister at DFO; Guy Beaupré is the director general of the international fisheries directorate; Loyola Sullivan is our Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation; and Gilles Gauthier is director general of multilateral trade policy at DFAIT.

I'd like to thank them all for attending today.

Thank you for inviting me to return today. It's always a privilege to appear before the committee on critical fisheries issues that are of importance to coastal Canadians. I must say that I do know from speaking to many of you personally that you have a vested interest in this industry and that you always look out for it.

My department, our government, has taken decisive action in defence of Canadian sealers in light of the European Union's intention to ban the placing on the market of seal products in the European Community. This has been a priority file for me, personally, since taking office as Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. The May 5 vote in favour of banning seal products from markets in the European Community struck a blow to sealers in the north and the south, their families, and our country as a whole. The European Union's decision is purely politically motivated. The ban is without just cause, and we believe it is contrary to international trade law.

Prime Minister Harper has been clear that the Government of Canada will vigorously defend sealers' access to markets and will take whatever trade action is necessary. Our trade lawyers are carefully reviewing the legislation. However, the text will not be considered final until after the Council of Ministers has voted, which we have been told will not take place until June or this coming fall. We are committed to taking this measure to the World Trade Organization, because we believe this measure is contrary to WTO rules.

Since early 1996, our government has made repeated and unrelenting efforts to impress upon the EU and its member states the value of the Canadian seal hunt. We have voiced our commitment to responsible management of a hunt that prioritizes animal welfare and sustainability. Prime Minister Harper has made numerous interventions with his counterparts in the European Union. Leading up to the vote, our government escalated efforts to counter the proposed ban.

To help illustrate the steps taken by the government, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the tireless advocacy work of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Loyola Sullivan, since his appointment in 2007, as well as actions taken by my department since I was appointed minister last November. He is attending with me and can expand on what he's been doing.

I think it's important to note that over the last two years, Ambassador Sullivan has led or participated in several Canadian delegations to Brussels, which is the seat of the European Union, and to all 27 EU member states. He advocated alongside key Canadian representatives, including the premier and federal, provincial, and territorial ministers, as well as other senior officials from Quebec, Nunavut, Newfoundland and Labrador, and the federal government.

These delegations also included representatives of the sealing industry, sealers and processors, and technical experts. All points of view have been included and valued. To date, Ambassador Sullivan has participated in more than 350 meetings with various European ministers and senior government officials and over 45 members of the European Parliament. Under my predecessor, Minister Hearn, and since my appointment as minister, my department has also been working very hard, on many levels, to counter this threat to this sustainable, historic, Canadian industry.

In addition to organizing delegations to Europe, my department partnered with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to deliver an advocacy campaign in European member states. We led a public relations campaign and negotiated bilaterally with European governments. I personally led a delegation to Prague for high-level meetings with senior government officials from the Czech Republic. The Czech Republic currently holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, so it was extremely important for us to participate in meetings there. It was one arena in which the Czech Republic could have played a moderating role in negotiations, but they chose politics.

In January, a delegation led by Conservative Senator Fabian Manning , the associate deputy minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and Ambassador Sullivan traveled to Brussels to present Canada's position to the EU Parliament's Committee on Internal Market and Consumer Protection. In our efforts to get the Canadian position on the record, and to ensure that EU representatives were in possession of the facts, we wrote letters to the chairs of the European parliamentary committees that were examining the proposal. We wrote to the rapporteur and to the shadow rapporteur of the lead committee to register objections to a one-sided and largely fallacious press release published on January 22, 2009.

We invited rapporteurs and shadow rapporteurs to visit Canada. We sent letters to all the member states' ministers of environment.

I personally called the Portuguese minister and other members of the European Parliament to impress upon them the consequences of allowing policy to be driven by the animal rights campaigns.

We visited key European countries and spoke to European parliaments. My officials quite ably responded to technical questions from various EU representatives. We prepared and presented position papers to all members of the European Parliament, and to the environment ministers of the member states.

We responded to questions from members of the Committee on the Internal Market and Consumer Protection, and we arranged to have those responses posted publicly on the parliamentary website.

We wrote an article that became the first balanced story on this issue to be published in the European parliamentary magazine, and we made very strong interventions at the North Atlantic Fisheries Ministers' Conference.

Honourable members have raised the issue with their European counterparts in face-to-face meetings, through letters, and by phone.

My esteemed colleagues, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of International Trade, have worked diligently at the international level to advocate for Canadian sealers. Their departments have also worked extremely hard in support of our efforts.

We intensified our outreach activities this spring, and our government has advertised in various European media. Our philosophy is that we need to be involved in changing the hearts and minds of Europeans and not just European parliamentarians who are getting feedback from their constituents. With this in mind, communication efforts will continue.

As part of our ongoing commitment to adhere to the highest standards of animal welfare, DFO has made amendments to the marine mammal regulations and licence conditions governing the hunt. We consulted seal harvesters and scientists to ensure these changes would provide the best possible outcomes for the industry and the resource.

In addition to these measures, we have enhanced monitoring and enforcement of the hunt. Fishery officers and the Canadian Coast Guard continue to strengthen enforcement measures.

From every angle, my department has led the way in defending the hunt against misinformed accusations and attacks from radical animal rights groups. In all our outreach activities the information provided has been confirmed by independent experts, yet European Union decision-makers have instead favoured the misinformation propagated by radical animal rights groups. The inflammatory publicity campaigns organized by anti-sealing groups have been relentless and supported with seemingly unlimited funds.

I cautioned my European counterparts that they may yet find themselves on the very slippery slope they have begun with this emotion-based, unjustifiable ban. Their short-sighted position will result in serious consequences, notably for other similar hunting activities in the European Union and elsewhere.

Mr. Chair, I have attempted to paint a picture of commitment, of steadfast determination to defend this country's sealing industry. In the last three years we have made every effort possible to counteract destructive publicity in this senseless ban. But to our surprise we also had to counter destructive actions by a member of the Canadian Parliament. Senator Harb's actions, I would suggest, just made the EU's decision that much easier, and that's very unfortunate.

The European Parliament's proposed ban cannot become law until it has been adopted by the Council of the European Union, which represents the member states. Our government is studying the exact wording of the proposed regulation and will take appropriate action.

Our advocacy efforts will continue until we have achieved a reasonable solution that is acceptable to both the European Union and to Canada. We will continue to inform international discussions so that decisions are based on the facts, not on the emotional rhetoric that has clouded this issue for far too long.

Our government recognizes the negative impact this ban could have on sealing communities in Atlantic Canada and in the north, even with a limited exemption for Inuit. And we're going to continue to defend the rights of Canadian seal harvesters to earn a sustainable living. We will continue the dialogue, we will negotiate, and we will exercise our rights to the fullest extent of the law.

Our Conservative government is standing up in defence of Canadian sealers' right to earn a living safely and lawfully, and Mr. Chair, we will continue to do that.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Mr. Byrne.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and to your guests at the table.

Minister, you've raised more often than any anti-sealing activist organization the situation of Senator Mac Harb. In all your presentation you never once mentioned the fact that this Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans unanimously endorsed the seal hunt. You've never acknowledged that we've had a take-note debate where every political party in Canada endorses the seal hunt. You did not acknowledge that just last night we had a motion of concurrence on the standing committee's report, where every political party and every parliamentarian in the House unanimously concurred with our support for the seal hunt. It seems to me that when you say this decision is about pure politics, you're part of the politics.

But sealers in sealing communities are often very frustrated and angered by the hypocrisy of the activists against the hunt, and that seems to be what you suggest drives the politics. Listening to those who promote the misinformation about the hunt for their own financial gain, it's really kind of tough for us to be able to walk in their leather shoes. And we all agree with that. This hypocrisy is nothing new. But we're here to talk about what your government is doing today.

Hypocrisy seems to be part of the strategy, because we've just had a process whereby we've had Canada and the European Union engaged in a basis for discussion on free trade talks at the very point in time when the European Union basically started those talks with an illegal trade activity, the banning of Canadian seal products. It's illegal under the WTO.

What do we do? We walk into those discussions and say we will not let that illegal trade ban pollute or confuse our trade discussions with the EU. It's been pointed out that would be a very serious offence to what would be a big market for Canada, that we'd lose a lot of jobs as a result, and that we shouldn't do that. Why did the EU do it? Why did the EU try to pollute those talks with an illegal trade ban?

Why is it that when you say we've been very vigorous in defence of the seal hunt, the Canadian Sealers Association, the Fur Institute of Canada, and other people involved in this industry, like Dion Dakins, said Canada wasn't even present the day of the vote in the EU Parliament? They were very, very vocal. Were they politically motivated to do that? Was the Canadian Sealers Association politically motivated to make that criticism of the federal government's presence, or lack thereof, at the EU Parliament?

Minister, what do you have to say about that?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I want to thank you very much.

You made a number of comments in there and I will try to answer some of them. This has been a longstanding dispute with Europe, as you know. The sealing issue did not just come up this year, and it's something that has long been a revenue generator, I guess, for the special interest groups who have made it their issue.

When you talked about whether or not we should jeopardize free trade talks or if this should become part of the talks, one of the reasons the WTO exists is to help resolve disputes such as this, and that's where we would go with our complaint. When you talked about a free trade deal with the European Union, I do believe there are many opportunities for Canada, and many opportunities for Newfoundland for a lot of your products to enter the European Union without the high tariffs they currently experience. So I think there are a lot of benefits to both sides, aside from this dispute. That's why the WTO exists, to take care of disputes such as this.

I just want to go back a minute and talk about.... And I don't want to be political about this. I know it was a senator who took it upon himself to, I guess, have his moment of glory and to get his name in the paper, because he didn't support the Canadian seal hunt. But what he did was to have a very aggressive campaign against the Canadian seal hunt. If he had stood up and said, “I don't agree with the Canadian seal hunt”, that would have been fine. But he set out specifically to damage the work we had done in support of the Canadian seal hunt. He sent letters to every parliamentarian in Europe. So this was not any help. If I were a European parliamentarian, my reaction would be, well, I guess not everybody in Canada supports the seal hunt; I guess not everybody in the Parliament of Canada supports the seal hunt. So this made it easier for them to do this.

My answer to you is that we weren't there on voting day. As you heard in my opening remarks, we were there many other days. We talked to as many people as we could. The people will tell you privately: this is a political issue, and you guys are absolutely right that you do have a humane seal hunt. Because of the work that was done by the special interest groups in etching that picture of the baby white seal in their mind and somebody clubbing it, their constituents are calling for a ban on the Canadian seal hunt. So the politicians are going to do what their constituents want. Usually that's a good idea. Sometimes it's a good idea to make a decision based on facts, and this is very unfortunate.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, while I have the minister here, I will say that the Canadian fishing industry is in absolute crisis. Just last week a call went out to this minister asking her to convene a federal-provincial ministers meeting with fishing stakeholders from Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

Will the minister be conducting that federal-provincial meeting soon? Has she called her counterparts? Can we expect this minister to show the leadership that's required this week to have that meeting?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Yes, we did get a copy of the press release and the invitation on Friday, I believe.

I have spoken several times to my counterparts. I have spoken to the minister from Quebec and to the minister from P.E.I. on several occasions. I've spoken to the minister from New Brunswick on a couple of occasions. So we have been in contact.

We will be responding to the letter. And I agree with you 100% that we do have a crisis on our hands, and people are having a very tough time in the fishing industry. It's hit a lot of other industries across the country, and the fishing industry is no different.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Do you believe, as you said in the House, that the European Union-Canada free trade talks are poisoned now as a result of the seal ban by Europe? That's a statement you made in the House of Commons recently, that the seal ban has created a very serious cloud, and I believe the specific word you used was “poisoned”.

Do you still believe this today based on your comments at committee today?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I don't believe I've ever said that. What I have said is that the government was looking at the seal issue as a separate issue from the free trade agreement.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I wish you would raise the issue more strongly and forcefully on behalf of Canadian sealers. This seems like a wonderful opportunity to be able to do so.

Mr. Chair, I'll pass the questions over to my colleague, Mr. MacAulay.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and welcome, Madam Minister.

I'm certainly fully aware of the problems that are involved in the fishing industry. As far as the seal hunt is concerned, Minister, would you please, on behalf of the sealers, ask the Prime Minister to make this part of the talks? It does not have to destroy them. You indicated in the House that this has to be two different issues. Well, we're talking trade, and the fact of the matter is that the Europeans have started this trade deal with an illegal trade ban.

All I would ask you to do is to please ask the Prime Minister to make sure that he addresses forcefully the issue of the illegal trade ban in his discussions. It seems to me a very strange way to start a trade deal by starting off with a trade ban that is illegal.

Will you, Madam Minister, please ask your Prime Minister to make this a very important issue as far as the trade deal is concerned?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Yes, Mr. Chair, I'm sure the Prime Minister understands how very important this issue is to Canada. He has stood up in the House of Commons and defended the Canadian sealing industry. I don't think I need to tell the Prime Minister that this is an important issue.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Andrews.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for you about going to the World Trade Organization. Two years ago, in 2007, Belgium and the Netherlands also put a ban on Canada's seal products. If the World Trade Organization is such a successful and good organization to go to, why did your government not proceed with World Trade Organization sanctions at that particular time? Now you're saying that the World Trade Organization is going to solve our problems. If that were the case, why wouldn't we have started the process two years ago? This could take five years; we would have been two years into setting some precedents in the EU on trade talks.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I want to clarify. I didn't say that the WTO was going to solve our problems, because we know it's not going to solve all our problems.

Since I wasn't around at that time, I want to ask my deputy minister to comment on the reason for not going to the WTO at the time.

11:35 a.m.

Claire Dansereau Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

At the time of those two bans, there was a serious talk about an EU-wide approach to the issue of seals. It was very clear where we had to put our energies; it was in fighting the EU-wide ban. It was also very clear, once that process started, that there was no point in taking the two countries to the WTO, because on the one hand, if you remember, the commission had drafted a directive that included a derogation clause. We would have been forcing the commission then to fight against the derogation clause in order to fight for the full ban, to be on the side of the member state countries. We didn't want that to happen. We needed to wait until there was something actually to fight EU-wide, which is where we are now.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Why couldn't you deal with two of them at the same time, though?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

We would have been forcing the commission to take a position that would have been counter to our benefit. It would not have made any sense to us, because we would have been hardening the road towards a full ban, and there is no point.

I must admit, WTO actions are extremely expensive, and we knew that if something were going to happen at the EU, that's where our energies and our moneys had to be focused, because that would take care of the entire 27 member states, rather than just one or two.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

So it was a money issue.

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

No, it wasn't a money issue; it was a common sense issue, that the EU-wide ban was where we needed to focus our energies, both in trying to prevent it, into which we put an enormous amount of effort, and now, if it does make its way through the system, to fight it at the WTO.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Madame Dansereau.

You did very well in 50 seconds, Mr. Andrews.

Monsieur Blais.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I imagine that you are going to allow all of the political parties to indulge in this delinquency. Thank you very much.

Firstly, I would like to speak for a minute or two about the lobster fishery. I will then aim my questions at the issue that is of concern to us today.

Ms. Shea, given what is happening with the lobster industry, do you not think it would be appropriate to organize in short order — and I would imagine it would be this week — a meeting, a summit, a forum, to which all of the stakeholders in the Atlantic lobster industry could delegate one or more representatives?

As you know, the matter is grave, the situation is extremely difficult. We are talking about the future of a fleet that used to be flourishing, at least in certain areas.

Do you not think it would be appropriate to organize such a summit?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I can tell the honourable member that we had a request from all the different fisheries organizations that deal with lobsters on the east coast of Canada. We're going to be responding to the request from the Atlantic lobster industry. They are asking for a meeting to happen as soon as possible. As soon as we can arrange it, that will happen.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Do you think it would be appropriate to set up this meeting in the very near future, in other words this week?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I talked to a couple of my counterparts. I need to talk to a couple more of them. We're trying to have a conference call on this very issue sometime later today. I should know more tomorrow about when we can possibly make this happen.