Evidence of meeting #4 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roch Huppé  Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Claire Dansereau  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Bevan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
George Da Pont  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Michaela Huard  Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources and Corporate Services, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Paul Sprout  Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call this meeting to order.

I'd like to begin by welcoming the minister here today, Minister Shea.

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with the committee once again. I know you're no stranger to the committee and the members here. It's always a pleasure to have you before us.

Minister, I know you're familiar with the procedures here. We generally allow about ten minutes for presentations. I believe you have an opening statement that you'd like to make before we proceed to questioning from members.

Minister, at this point in time please feel free to proceed.

March 24th, 2010 / 3:45 p.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a great privilege for me to be here today and have the opportunity to speak with you. I always enjoy coming to the committee because I know the people around the table have a great interest in fisheries, and I certainly want to welcome everyone's comments.

Before I get started I'd like to introduce the officials I have with me today: Deputy Minister Claire Dansereau; Assistant Deputy Minister David Bevan; the department's chief financial officer, Roch Huppé; Canadian Coast Guard Commissioner George Da Pont; and Michaela Huard, who is the ADM for human resources and corporate services. I have several other officials in the room as well.

This afternoon I want to talk to you a bit about the forward agenda for our department, beginning with the main estimates.

Jobs and growth are a top priority as our government completes implementation of our economic action plan while also charting the course ahead to restrain growth in spending.

With regard to my department's main estimates, you will note an overall increase of $326.2 million over 2009-10. This increased funding is primarily in continued support of our economic stimulus projects announced in the economic action plan budgets of 2009-10. These projects, totalling approximately $217 million, include improvements to small craft harbours, modernization of Canadian Coast Guard infrastructure, modernization of our laboratory and science facilities, and the reclamation of contaminated sites.

Using past and present funding as a vantage point, I'd like to talk to you about how Fisheries and Oceans Canada is well positioned to deliver on the government's priorities as they relate to our fishing industry. Since this government came into office in 2006, up to and including budget 2010, this government has committed nearly $2.5 billion in new funding and an additional $190 million in ongoing annual funding for initiatives related to fleet renewal, fisheries science research, and small craft harbours, along with a number of other projects. This funding includes significant investments in the Canadian Coast Guard to purchase new ships and repair our existing fleet.

Significant investments have also been made towards construction and repairs of small craft harbours to ensure safe, accessible, and sound harbour facilities for the commercial fishing industry and the communities they support. At this time, there are 263 projects either completed, under way, in the engineering phase, or in the tendering process. These projects are in addition to the construction of a small craft harbour at Pangnirtung, Nunavut, and the necessary supporting infrastructure. Our government understands that the Nunavut fishery is unique and gaining in importance. Providing harbour infrastructure in Pangnirtung is an important contribution to our government's northern strategy. It will drive economic development and lead to spin-off benefits for the entire community.

In addition to the harbour itself, we are also providing aids to navigation, scientific and fisheries resource management support, and new regulations to ensure a strong sustainable fishery for years to come. Additionally, we have been delivering on the economic action plan by taking steps to modernize federal laboratories. So far construction is under way or completed at 69 sites.

As you know, science is fundamental to the work we do. The knowledge, products, services, and advice provided by our scientists impact the lives and livelihoods of thousands of Canadians on the water who harvest our fisheries resources. It is vital to ensure this capability is accurate and well equipped to do the job. That's why we have made considerable effort to augment our science research capacity in areas that strategically support sustainable fisheries and trade into the future.

Our science program operates 15 institutes, laboratories, and experimental centres in six operational regions, with an annual budget of approximately $230 million. Under our economic action plan, my department received $30 million to enhance the efficiency of these operations. Over a four-year period, we are also allocating nearly $14 million to complete mapping in the Atlantic and Arctic Oceans and the collection of data for Canada's submission to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

As you know, fisheries science in the north is crucial, and we're investing a further $9.7 million over five years to increase the science capacity in the central and Arctic region. This funding will support resources, decision-making, and emerging commercial fisheries opportunities in the north.

Internationally, we're allocating $4 million annually for fisheries and habitat research supporting market access issues such as improved fishing practices in the high seas and research on transboundary fish populations.

Through our economic action plan, the Government of Canada has also taken steps to help the fishing industry weather the global economic challenges of the last year. As we all know, the lobster industry was hit particularly hard by the economic downturn. Atlantic lobster is Canada's most lucrative fishery, employing 39,000 Canadians and constituting 24% of all Canadian seafood exports. That is why last year I announced the government's total investment of $75 million to support the lobster fishery.

The bulk of this spending, $50 million, was earmarked to help the industry restructure and improve its sustainability, to encourage self-rationalization measures, to meet eco-certification requirements, and to facilitate access to capital for lobster fishers. This funding will help the industry to better meet the changing demands of the market, including growing demands for proof that seafood products come from sustainable fisheries, while ensuring conservation objectives are met. In that regard, my Atlantic colleagues and I have agreed to work closely to ensure coordination among governments on programs to assist the lobster industry.

A further $10 million was invested through the community adjustment fund to improve marketing, assist in innovation, and develop products and technologies. Our government recognizes that developing a strong and recognizable brand for Canadian lobster holds the key to the success of this important fishery. In February we invested $352,000 under the community adjustment fund for a comprehensive international lobster marketing strategy.

Ensuring that all of our fish and seafood products remain accessible to international markets is a top priority. Since more than 85% of Canada's fish and seafood is exported, we need to take new and emerging market requirements very seriously. Global markets are increasingly calling on governments and industry to demonstrate that fish and seafood products are not only safe, but also that they come from sustainable and legal fisheries. Traceability of fish and seafood products, from the harvesting activity to the consumer, is a key element of emerging market demands.

We are hard at work to ensure continued access to European markets. In December 2009 our government opened its new catch certification office to satisfy new European Union regulatory requirements for fish and seafood imports. In addition, we are working with representatives abroad, provincial and territorial governments, and industry stakeholders to address emerging market access requirements.

We are proud of Canadian fish and seafood products. The importance of this industry to our economy cannot be understated. In 2009 Canadian fish and seafood exports generated more than $3.6 billion in export revenues. We want to build on this by helping to expand our international markets.

We are also taking a strong stand in support of Canada's seal industry, which has been targeted by international animal rights activists through a calculated misinformation campaign. This campaign misled the European Union into adopting a ban on Canadian seal products. As you know, the ban is unacceptable, and threatens the rights of Canadians to make a decent living from an historic practice that is humane and lawful. The government is focused on jobs and growth, and we fully intend to defend the legitimate interests of Canada's sealers and their communities.

In December we held consultations with the European Union, the first step of many that we'll take in the World Trade Organization challenge process. We also take advantage of opportunities, such as international trade missions, to communicate the facts about the harvest while developing and stimulating demand for our products. This was a key reason for my visit to China in January. The goal of my visit was to promote both seal products and seafood to the world's largest consumer of fish and seafood. l also met with senior Chinese government officials and secured a commitment to work together towards lifting current restrictions on the import of seal products.

As you know, budget 2010 underlined the need to restore fiscal balance in our planning for economic recovery. My department will likely be a part of the 2010-11 strategic review process. Aligning with the priorities set out in the Speech from the Throne and budget 2010, our strategic review will aim to ensure that our programs and services are the ones Canadians really need and are delivered efficiently and effectively.

I can also say that year two of our economic action plan funding will sustain the momentum in fuelling the economic recovery, while also supporting fishing industries through the new money allocated in budget 2010. Toward this end, the budget provides two-year funding for the following initiatives: $7.2 million to support the catch certification office; $2.2 million to deliver navigational services in two newly-created Arctic navigational areas; and $8 million for programs related to research, risk assessment, prevention, and early detection and control of aquatic invasive species.

Just last month I spoke with U.S. officials in Washington to discuss a number of bilateral issues, including controlling the populations of Asian carp and other aquatic invasive species. This issue is of great importance as we work to protect valuable recreational fisheries that provide significant benefits to Canadians.

This budget also provides $27.3 million over five years for a new hovercraft for the Canadian Coast Guard's Sea Island home base in Richmond, British Columbia.

In the Speech from the Throne, the government also signalled its intention to introduce new legislation to reform Canada's fisheries management system. I am sure everyone here recognizes the importance of moving forward to reform legislation governing Canada's fisheries. Revitalizing the Fisheries Act will be a priority, and I look forward to the work I hope we can all do on this together. And I can tell you, from my conversations with a number of provinces over the last year, this is also a priority for them.

We'll continue to implement stabilization measures for fisheries across the Atlantic provinces. The decision to stabilize access to various species will enable all commercial fleets to better plan their fishing operations in the long term.

On the Pacific coast, the government is demonstrating its deep concern about low returns of sockeye salmon to the Fraser River in 2009 and the implications for the fishery. We recognize the importance of Fraser River sockeye salmon to first nations, commercial harvesters, the recreational sector, the British Columbia economy, and all Canadians. That's why our government has established the commission of inquiry into the decline of sockeye salmon in the Fraser River. I am very interested, as I'm sure the industry is, to learn from the commission's findings.

As you can see, the government has put in place a set of robust and effective programs to support our fisheries, protect Canadians and Canadian waterways, and continue to play a key role in Canada's recovery from this economic downturn.

My department is well positioned to deliver on the government's priorities of jobs and growth as they relate to Canada's fishing industry, and we are moving forward on all fronts to continue this very important work.

With the committee's permission I'd now like to ask my chief financial officer, Roch Huppé, to walk you through the highlights of the department's main estimates.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Minister, we're just about out of time for presentations.

I'm not sure how long your presentation will take, Mr. Huppé. Have you any idea?

3:55 p.m.

Roch Huppé Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

About 10 to 15 minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I think the committee members would prefer to move right into questions at this time. We can possibly refer to your presentation through the questions. I assume the members would rather do it from that perspective. So if it's all right, we'll move right to questions.

Mr. Byrne will start off.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Minister.

I'd like to give a special welcome to David Bevan. It's great to have you back at the table, David.

Madam Minister, you said in your opening remarks that one of the pre-eminent events will be the tabling of the new Fisheries Act. Can you confirm to the committee that the fishery is indeed a public resource?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Yes, it is.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Would you be able to supply to the committee a list of licence-holders of a particular fishery so that those who own this resource, the public, can have information about those who have exclusive access to a particular fishery?

Would you also be able to provide information on specific quota allocations associated with those licences?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I would have to get advice on whether or not that is public information.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

It's a public fishery, Minister, so I assume that it is public information. Obviously the CRTC manages public airwaves, and it's a matter of public information who has exclusive access to those public airwaves as broadcasters.

I'll follow up on the question with the staff after we finish our exchange here.

I'll ask another question, Madam Minister. Why do you continue to uphold the decision of former minister Loyola Hearn, who ignored and bypassed the specific advice of an independent ministerial licensing panel when he granted Tim Rhyno a million-dollar crab licence as a gift, even though he didn't deserve it? Can I ask exactly why you're upholding that decision?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Well, honourable member, I was not here. I don't have the details of that particular case. I'm sure there were extenuating circumstances in that situation, which is what I am told. That was the minister's decision to make.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I guess it was the minister's decision to make, wasn't it.

But there was another decision by another minister that you did decide to interfere with. In 2005, fisheries minister Geoff Regan signed a contract with area 23 and 24 crabbers to the effect that, as soon as the biomass of a particular resource, the crab resource in that area, exceeded a certain tonnage, the quota of crab would be shared on a fifty-fifty basis between traditional aboriginal fleets and the core company fleet. That was a decision by former minister Regan. In 2009 you decided to tear up that contract.

You say now you won't interfere with the decision of a former minister. Minister Loyola Hearn granted Tim Rhyno a licence, and you're going to live with that. Why won't you live with the contract signed with area 23 and 24 crabbers? Why did you tear that up?

You overturned a decision that last year, and again this year, was to split the quota fifty-fifty between those two fleet sectors, but now you're allocating at 62% in favour of the traditional aboriginal fleet and at 38% for the core company fleet. The two fleets may be equal in some numbers, but it isn't quota, and that's what that contract said.

Why the discrepancy? Why the difference?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I have received advice from many sources on this issue. I received advice from the various fleets. I went back and looked at the report. I received direct submissions, talked to the people involved, got the advice of the department, and at the end of the day this was seen as the most equitable decision.

There were different circumstances back when this report was first written. As a matter of fact, there are a number of items in that report, I'm told, the minister of the day did not adopt. He picked the ones he wanted to agree with. It was not a contract.

This was seen as the most equitable decision. Those licences now all share the very same quota. They did receive a modest increase last year. They received another modest increase this year. So it was very important to stabilize the fishery after listening to everybody's submissions, and try to make the most fair decision.

The traditional fishers have been in the business for quite a number of years, and they weighed in as well on this decision.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Your regional area manager for eastern Nova Scotia, Ms. Joan Reid, weighed in on this as well. On February 18, 2009, just a month before you tore up the contract, she wrote to every crabber in area 23 and 24. Here's exactly what she said: “It's expected that due to the strong recruitment, a TAC exceeding 9,700 tonnes” --which is the threshold of the contract--“may be approved in 2009, thus triggering the permanent fifty-fifty sharing arrangement recommended by the advisory panel on access and allocation in 2005. No other management measures, including quota transfers, will be affected by this.”

Your own area manager wrote to every crabber a month before you tore up the contract, saying the contract stands, we're going to implement it, and the licence commissions will actually implement the contract. You decided instead, as of 2010, to assign a 4,400-tonne quota to the traditional and aboriginal fleet, and the core company fleet receives just 2,700. The contract says 3,575 tonnes, approximately, per fleet.

Madam Minister, in the former versions of the Fisheries Act that you tabled, you said a contract is a contract is a contract, and the statute would protect those contracts. You're now telling us other circumstances now suggest we really shouldn't necessarily have to abide by contracts. You're making a very convincing argument that you really don't believe in the Fisheries Act that was tabled.

He had granted a licence to Tim Rhyno and you upheld that decision, even though it was recommended by the advisory panel that you not do that. There was a contract in place with area 23 and 24 crabbers, signed by another minister. You said, I don't think I'm going to honour that contract.

The new Fisheries Act, as I understand it, was supposed to actually provide guarantees, statutory guarantees, that the fisheries minister shouldn't be able to do that and couldn't do that. You're making a very convincing case that that's not necessarily the way to go.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

I ask this question as a relatively new member. The minister has clearly provided a tremendous amount of work to make her presentation today, in looking forward and looking at general principles in terms of what is going to unfold for the fisheries in the years to come, and we're getting very specific questions about very narrowly constrained issues.

I don't know, Mr. Chair, but maybe you can guide me. Is it appropriate to be narrowing in on a singular case when the minister has prepared herself to talk about general policies in terms of the unfolding fisheries?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

It is the convention of this committee that when you have five or ten minutes to question a witness, you have five or ten minutes to question a witness.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I apologize. We should have stopped the timer when we took the point of order.

As long as the line of questioning is pertinent to the programs that are provided by the department, and the minister is certainly... This falls within the realm of the responsibility of the minister. There is no issue with the member proceeding with his line of questioning at this time.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

As long as we don't expect her to be totally prepared for each individual question about each individual case under her jurisdiction.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I'm sure the minister is quite capable of taking questions under advisement if need be and reporting back to the committee at a later date.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Byrne, please proceed with your question.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I think I've asked my question, Madam Minister, so if you would be able to provide some reconciliation of those two contrasting...

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Thank you.

Well, first of all, as I said, there was no contract, so there was no contract torn up. Maybe Mr. Byrne needs to go back and read through the original report, which talked about equity among the licence-holders.

It's interesting that you talk about the new Fisheries Act and what is in the new Fisheries Act. I hope that's an indication that you're going to support the new Fisheries Act and help us get it passed.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Well, I'll just note that Ms. Joan Reid, the acting area director of the eastern Nova Scotia Department of Fisheries and Oceans, disagrees with you. According to her letter to every crab fisherman, there was a contract. The acting area director says that the fifty-fifty sharing arrangement recommended by the advisory panel on access to allocation in 2005 will be going ahead in 2009. She said that. She made that commitment to every crabber one month before you tore up the contract.

Madam Minister, $15 million was allocated last year for a lobster industry income support program. The deadline for the program is now long past. Could you tell us how much of the $15 million was spent? Of this, how much was spent on payments to fishermen and how much was spent on overhead by DFO?

I'll turn the remainder of my time over to Mr. Dhaliwal.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Thank you.

Just quickly, to go back to the crab issue, I want to say that this is why it's very important that we stabilize shares: so that we don't have decisions that affect fisheries in this way. We have been working on stabilizing shares across Atlantic Canada so that there are no decisions to be made when quota goes up or down. The shares are stabilized.

On the short-term lobster assistance program, there has been $8.5 million paid out to fishermen—