Evidence of meeting #67 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew King  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Roch Huppé  Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Trevor Swerdfager  Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation and Program Policy Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Marc Grégoire  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kevin Stringer  Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Bevan  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

March 5th, 2013 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I'll call this meeting to order.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for appearing here this morning.

Mr. King, welcome to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This is your first appearance, I believe, before our committee. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your new role and thank you very much for being here this morning.

I believe, Mr. King, you're going to start off with some opening comments and will then turn it over to Mr. Huppé to give a brief overview of the estimates.

Mr. King, whenever you're prepared, please proceed.

11:05 a.m.

Matthew King Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning.

On behalf of my colleagues, I'd like to thank the committee for the invitation to appear today to discuss our department's supplementary estimates (C) for 2012-2013 and our main estimates for the fiscal year 2013-2014.

As you noted, Mr. Chairman, Minister Ashfield will join us in the proceedings shortly and will have opening remarks to make, so I intend to keep my comments very brief.

If I could, Mr. Chairman—and thank you for your kind words—I would like to begin by telling the committee how honoured I was to be appointed Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans on January 14, 2013. As some of the members may know, I have had the pleasure of working in eight federal departments for almost 30 years. For over 15 of these years, I've served at the assistant deputy minister, associate deputy minister, and now the deputy minister level. I feel very fortunate in that regard.

Members may also know that over the last 20 years or so I've had the occasion to work in a few different positions in Fisheries and Oceans Canada and had the opportunity to work alongside the coast guard, and I'm very grateful to have been given the opportunity to return to DFO as the deputy minister.

Mr. Chair, I know that committee members have a full appreciation of the important work that is undertaken by the department and the Canadian Coast Guard, on a daily basis. And I know, based on the number of times I have appeared before the committee in past years, that there is an appreciation of the efforts of the men and women of DFO and the Canadian Coast Guard to implement such an important and challenging mandate.

In the short time since my return, I have had the opportunity to reacquaint with old colleagues in DFO.

I've met many new colleagues since my return to the department a few weeks ago. Mr. Chair, I feel very capable and very fortunate to have inherited such a dedicated and accomplished senior management team at DFO and CCG. A few of these colleagues are with me today and, I believe, are not strangers to this committee.

With me are David Bevan, on my right, our associate deputy minister;

Marc Grégoire, commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard; France Pégeot, senior assistant deputy minister of strategic policy;

Kevin Stringer, who's our assistant deputy minister of ecosystems and oceans science; and Trevor Swerdfager, assistant deputy minister of business transformation and program policy.

Once again, Mr. Chair, I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear here today.

If the committee is in agreement and there are no questions for me, I would ask our CFO, Roch Huppé, to provide the committee with an overview of our 2012-2013 supplementary estimates (C) and our main estimates for 2013.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Mr. Huppé, you have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Roch Huppé Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for giving us the opportunity to present a brief summary of our supplementary estimates (C) for 2012-2013, and our proposed main estimates for 2013-2014.

To this effect, I have provided all of you with a short presentation deck that I will use. I will skip right to page 3 of the deck and start off with a short summary of highlights of our supplementary estimates (C).

Basically what you see in front of you is a status update of our spending authorities for the year 2012-13. At the same time here last year, I presented the main estimates for 2012-13, and we were proposing a budget of $1.665 billion. During the course of the year, obviously we've had some budget adjustments, mainly through the supplementary estimates process. What we're showing now is that for the year, we will have just over $1.9 billion in spending authorities.

Now relating to supplementary estimates (C), the net effect on our budget is a small decrease of the net impact of $320,000. I'll go through the details. Although this is a small decrease, it doesn't mean that we have not brought in any additional funding through these estimates. Actually, we're bringing in just over $6.8 million of additional funding. It's just that this additional funding is being offset by surplus spending authorities within vote 5, our capital expenditures.

I'll move you to page 4. Here's a summary of that new additional funding that we're bringing into the department for 2012-13. The first item is close to $2 million, relating to revenues stemming from the sale of property. When the department proceeds with the disposal of real property, we get funding back through Public Works, and we're entitled to respend it on the same type of activities.

The second item is over $1.7 million in relation to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, what we refer to as UNCLOS. Basically this is an item that was part of our sunsetting programs last fiscal year, and for which budget 2012 provided us with renewed funding of close to $5 million over five years.

The third item is just close to $1.5 million relating to the Asian carp initiative. Budget 2012 provided the department with $17.5 million over five years, and basically $1.5 million is our requirement for year 2012-13. As well, $1.1 million is in relation to the definition phase to renew the helicopter fleet for the Canadian Coast Guard. That's basically funding that was obtained through last budget also, budget 2012, which was included in the $5.2 billion fleet renewal announcement.

There is $269,000 relating to government import regulations and border processes for commercial trade. This is a horizontal initiative, which DFO is part of. It's led by the Canada Border Services Agency. DFO received $1.4 million over three years in relation to that. There is $229,000 relating to the cleanup of oil spills. Basically, when the coast guard provides assistance for the cleanup of these spills, we're entitled to recover expenditures from the company that was liable for it.

For the remainder of the supplementary estimates (C), what we call transfers between votes, as you may know, the department or the minister doesn't have the authority to move money from vote 1 to vote 5. I have put in an appendix with a full listing of these transfers. I will not go through it, but if you have any questions on any of these, I'll be happy to answer them.

I'll move you to page 5 right now, and I'll go through a summary presentation of our main estimates for 2013-14. On page 5 what you see is a summary under vote 1, operating expenditures. We're seeking just over $1.1 billion, of which $740 million is for salary expenses. Under vote 5 are capital expenditures, $360 million, and 75% of that funding is in relation to the Canadian Coast Guard for fleet and shored-based assets.

Under vote 10, the grants and contributions program, we see $59 million. It's pretty stable in comparison with last fiscal year from a main-to-main comparative. The two last items, which are statutory in nature, are contributions to our employee benefit plans, $130 million, and the Minister of Fisheries and Ocean's salary and motor car allowance, $100,000. This brings the total ask for 2013-14 to $1.668 billion, compared with $1.665 billion in 2012-13. So there is a slight increase of $3.1 million.

I will go in a few minutes over the key increases and key decreases when comparing the main estimates of last fiscal year with 2013-14.

The three next pages I will go through quickly. This is basically a breakdown of our proposed main estimates of $1.668 billion between our different program activities. The department has 26 program activities including the internal services activities. So page six shows that, under the economically prosperous maritime sectors and fisheries strategic outcomes, which include our programs that support sustainable and effective use of Canada's water resources, we are planning to spend over $421 million. You will note that 61% of that spend lies within the two first program activities: the integrated fisheries management, that is, the management of commercial and recreational fisheries; and the small-craft harbours program.

You will note in the fourth column, under vote 10, $41 million under the aboriginal strategies and governance. So 70% of our grants and contributions funding is in relation to that program activity.

On page seven, under the sustainable aquatic ecosystems strategic outcome, which consists of programs that contribute to the conservation, protection, and sustainability of our aquatic ecosystems, we're planning to spend just shy of $239 million, 70% of which, in this case, is to be spent in compliance and enforcement. This includes monitoring and surveillance activities for fisheries protection.

In last year's mains, fisheries protection was called habitat management. The funding proposed this year is $58 million, which is stable in comparison with last fiscal year. It was also $58 million under habitat management.

I'll move you to page eight. Under strategic outcomes, we have safe and secure waters, which includes the programs that contribute to maintaining and improving maritime safety. A large part of this spend is related to the Canadian Coast Guard. They are planning to spend over $721 million, and 80% of that spend comes from the two first program activities: fleet operational readiness, which ensures that our fleet and our ships' crews are ready to operate; and shore-based asset readiness.

Under vote 5, capital expenditures, you'll notice that close to $270 million is planned to be spent against these same two program activities, which represents 75% of our spend in the area of capital expenditures.

The last point is under internal services. Our projected spend for the coming years is $286 million, compared with $296 million in the main estimates of 2012-13. Out of the $286 million, there is $115 million that relates to our real property spending. Fisheries and Oceans is one of most important departments from an asset-based perspective and includes our real property footprint.

I'll now take you to page nine to talk about the key increases that cause a variance from last year's mains. The first item is $76.7 million for Canadian Coast Guard vessel life extensions and the mid-life modernization program. That funding came through budget 2012, and it's part of $5.2 billion announced for fleet renewal. Some $316 million of that $5.2 billion goes to this program. The second item is $20 million for the acquisition of offshore science vessels and the management of the fleet procurement program.

In the management of the fleet procurement program, the department also received $5 million as part of the $5.2 billion announced in the last budget to support this program. The remaining is basically cashflow in relation to the acquisition of the offshore science vessels.

I'll just make the point that this funding variation does not necessarily mean new money or money disappearing from the budget. It basically also relates to how we use the money. For example, if we get $100 million to build a ship, and it's going to take five years, we will not spend $20 million every year. The cashflow will vary from year to year in building that ship. Therefore, for the offshore science vessels, this is a cashflow fluctuation.

There's $10.4 million related to compensation for collective bargaining agreements. Basically, every year we get an adjustment to our salary budget in relation to the collective agreements.

There's $8 million to protect wildlife species at risk. This was a program that was sunsetting last fiscal year, and for which we had renewed funding in budget 2012. The department received $24.6 million over three years for that initiative.

There's $6.6 million relating to the modernization of the regulatory system for major resource projects, what we refer to as MPMO. Again, this was a sunsetting program in last fiscal year for which we received renewed funding as part of budget 2012. We actually received $21 million over three years.

The last item on this page is $5 million in relation to the Digby Harbour Port Association, for repair of the wharf. Through budget 2012, we received $7.4 million for that. We've used $2.4 million in this fiscal year, so basically $2.4 million was brought into the supplementary estimates, as was announced in budget 2012. It was not included in the main estimates of the last fiscal year. This year the $5 million that we will require in 2013-14 is actually reflected in the main estimates of this year. This is why it's causing a variance of $5 million.

On page 10, dealing with decreases, the first item is $37.9 million relating to strategic review measures as announced in budget 2011. Budget 2011 announced a reduction to our budget of $56.8 million, so that's the additional portion, basically, with a conditional reduction that will bring us to that $56.8-million reduction.

The second item is $23 million relating to the mid-shore patrol vessels. Basically, in budgets 2005 and 2007, the department received $212.5 million for the acquisition of these vessels. This is simply a cashflow. It's not a reduction in funding. In last year's main estimates, there was $92.5 million projected to be spent on this, and in this year's main estimates we have $69.4 million for that program. So there's a variance of $23 million.

The third item is $16.7 million relating to the completion of the new aquaculture program initiative. This is a program that's actually sunsetting in March of this fiscal year. Back in 2008 we had received $70 million over five years, so any potential renewed funding in relation to that, if any, would be coming through the normal process and would appear in budget 2013. Obviously, it would not be reflected in these main estimates.

Also, there was $14.3 million in relation to the repairs as a result of the storm that happened in December 2010, mainly in the Atlantic regions. The department had received, through budget 2011, $57.3 million in additional funding to repair the small craft harbours, $43 million of which was spent in 2011-12, and $14 million in 2012-13. Therefore, in 2013-14, the money disappears as it was used for the repair of these wharves.

There was $13.4 million in relation to the second-year reduction of strategic and operating review measures, as announced in budget 2012.

The last item is $11 million relating to the acquisition of the polar ice breaker. Again, here's a cashflow variance in how we used the funding that we got for that particular bill.

I'll close off by saying, on the last page, obviously as I mentioned, any budget decision, any funding decision that would affect DFO's budget for the coming year as a result of budget 2013, which will be tabled soon, is not reflected in these main estimates.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Monsieur Huppé.

We will start off with our questioning with Mr. Allen.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

I'd like to start with a fairly high-level question with respect to the main estimates as well as the expenditures for this year based on the supplements that we've received to date.

The total department expenditure, once we take everything into consideration for 2012-13, will be $1.905 billion. The main estimates this year are coming in at $1.67 billion, which is not a whole lot different from the main estimates last year as well. I just wanted to note that.

However, given that number, what are the differences in terms of those numbers? We have to wait for a budget, and we have to wait for the next set of supplementaries and everything else, but what were some of the main sunset programs that would be included in that $300-million difference from spend this year and what's in the main estimates next year?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Roch Huppé

The main difference is this. Last year we had a decrease from main estimates to main estimates that was due mainly to sunsetting programs. Some of the key ones included the Pacific integrated commercial fisheries initiative, for which, through budget 2012, we received renewed funding for one year of $22 million. Another key program was AICFI, the Atlantic integrated commercial fisheries initiative, for which, again through budget 2012, we received $11 million for one year and renewed funding relating to that. There was also the science research, or the Larocque funding, that was sunsetting last fiscal year, for which we got a renewal of one year for $11 million. Those basically were the key items that made up the difference.

You will also notice that $120 million is locked into what we call “carry forwards”, right? Every year the departments have the authority to carry forward, from one year to the other, some funding.

As an example, in our operational funds, we're entitled to carry forward up to 5% of our initial funding. In the capital expenditures, under vote 5, we're entitled to carry forward 20%.

So that $120 million is within these authorities, and it's money that was, in some cases, purposely lapsed to projects being delivered in different timeframes and so on, and basically carried over to this fiscal year.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

What was the carry-over last year?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Roch Huppé

Last year, as you say, was.... Do you mean the previous year?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

The previous year.

11:25 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Roch Huppé

Okay, altogether, in operating, instead of $60 million, it was $42 million or $43 million, if I'm not mistaken.

In capital, it was much lower than $60 million. It was more around $10 million or $15 million.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay.

As you're aware, we're just wrapping up a study with respect to closed containment and salmon aquaculture. One of the programs you talked about sunsetting was the $16.7 million related to the new acquaculture program. You did indicate that this was a sunsetting program, with the initial program around $70 million.

I'm expecting that $16.7 million represents unspent dollars, so my question is this. What were the objectives, and did you achieve the objectives of that program in order to let these dollars sunset?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Roch Huppé

I'll let one of my colleagues answer the question on the objectives of the program.

These are not sunsetting dollars in the sense that they're not used. When I say it's sunset, it means that the funding is coming to completion.

So the $16.7 million will be spent this fiscal year, but there is no renewed funding identified at this moment to pursue this program in the coming year. It will go through the normal budget process.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I will frame my question a little bit differently, then. Did you achieve the objectives on the program dollars that we had?

As a secondary question out of that, has the department done any work on the development or the thought behind an aquaculture act, which was something that was asked in our hearings?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:25 a.m.

Trevor Swerdfager Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation and Program Policy Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In terms of the first part of your question, Mr. Allen, the objectives of the program really were fourfold.

The first objective was to improve the environmental regulation framework for aquaculture in this country. We have made substantial advances towards that goal, particularly, but not only, in British Columbia. You're probably aware that we have had a new Pacific aquaculture regulation in place for a couple of years now. The program lying underneath it, so to speak, is up and running and has moved forward significantly. We've also been working on the development of regulations with respect to the release of aquaculture substances. That regulation has not been completed; it is in the works and has been for some time. There are a whole series of technical issues associated with its drafting, but we are making progress towards improving the regulatory regime overall. The intent was never to be able to say, that's done, and move on to something else. Regulatory improvement was viewed, and still is, as a continuous improvement process.

The second objective of the program was to improve our science base, and in fact over half the funding in the program went into science to support the regulatory initiatives, but also to understand aquaculture more generally.

The funding in that program was back-end loaded. In the five-year profile of the program, we invested more heavily in science in years three, four, and five on the logic that in the first two years, we'd spend time thinking about and identifying science priorities. Rather than just hiring a series of scientists and asking them to study something, in essence what we said was, let's look at the priorities around that. So the science funding was back-end loaded a little bit.

As a result, many of the scientists who have been engaged and doing work are still at that process now. Again, we've made significant progress in our science results, but that was never intended to be something that you would say is finished, per se.

The third objective of the program is to support technology innovation in the industry, with an emphasis on green technology in particular. As you will know from your study on closed containment, the department and the government more generally through the SD Tech Fund has put fairly substantial investments into things like closed containment and other matters in the innovation envelope. Again, that work continues.

Finally, the fourth objective of the program is to position the government to put out a sustainability report that identifies, with a series of criteria, ongoing sustainability issues with respect to aquaculture. That report has had a series of methodological developments, if you will. When we started that, it wasn't something you pull off the shelf and say, here's how that's done. So the methodology of that has evolved and we have a report that is forthcoming shortly.

Those are the four objectives of the program, and I would say all of them are well advanced. None of them are what I would describe as complete, so to speak.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you very much. That's helpful.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Allen.

Mr. Donnelly.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the DFO officials for attending and providing us with this information. We do have a few questions.

I'd like to start off with Monsieur Grégoire. Last time you appeared before our committee you spoke about the closure of the Kitsilano coast guard station, and you estimated that the closure would create a net savings of about $700,000. I'm wondering if that is still the case?

11:30 a.m.

Marc Grégoire Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Yes, but I'll remind you that this was a net saving. I've seen different reports in the media about that. The gross saving, the actual cost of running the Kitsilano coast guard station, is about $900,000. So you achieve the $700,000 net saving by subtracting the money that we're giving to the RCMSAR, the auxiliaries in B.C., and the cost of operating the inshore rescue boat station, the seasonal one that will be operating out of HMCS Discovery.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you. With the closure of the Kits station, there was a real lack of consultation and a massive public outcry, and serious safety concerns were raised by the public, the City of Vancouver, the Province of B.C., and Vancouver's fire and police chiefs.

Did the coast guard ever seriously reconsider its decision to shut down the Kits station and use the seasonal student-based operation?

11:30 a.m.

Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marc Grégoire

On whether we have reconsidered, first of all, I would say that the proposal is ours. When we looked at places where we could be more efficient, we did that in the summer of 2011 in preparation for budget 2012. We looked at our operations throughout the country, and the coast guard management team and I were of the opinion, after looking at everything we do, that we could ensure search and rescue services in a more efficient manner in the port of Vancouver. Therefore, the proposal to close the Kitsilano station was made, but to do so along with mitigation measures, including the seasonal station and, more importantly, by increasing the capacity of the auxiliaries in B.C., the RCMSAR. They have increased their training. They have moved the station. New ships were acquired and I am very confident today that search and rescue will be offered in a safe manner at the proper level in the port of Vancouver.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

The coast guard caught everyone by surprise, including the province, the city, police, and fire crews, when you shut down the Kitsilano station months earlier than expected and without any notification, but can you confirm that the land on which the Kitsilano station sits is, in fact, provincial crown land?

11:30 a.m.

Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marc Grégoire

Yes, that is correct, but on your comment about the surprise, I am a bit surprised that people were surprised by the closure of Kitsilano, given the extent of the media coverage of that. We had said repeatedly, hundreds of times since last summer, that the station would be closing, but we never specified—

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

It was in the spring.