Fisheries Committee on April 20th, 2023

[Kendall Flood]

I know you said “other than”, but federally, DFO has been fantastic to work with from start to finish. CFIA has been fantastic to work with. They've helped us tremendously. We are nine years in the making, but we're brand new to getting going. CFIA has been extremely helpful.

Honestly, our headaches have been more on a provincial level.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay.

Can you explain some of the red tape that your group has had to deal with in developing your new seal processing venture?

[Kendall Flood]

It would take longer than this meeting to get through all of it.

The one that is the most painful and is happening at this exact second is that as of now, over 38,000 beater seals have been landed. The existing processor only asked for about 35,000, but they ended up taking 38,000 seals. Then they had to call the hunt off and the boats came home half empty. Some of them did not go out at all. Meanwhile, I have a customer in Canada that wants to buy 10,000 beater skins, but I'm not allowed to sell them. The provincial government has legislated a monopoly to one company, and the rest of us have to throw ours in the landfill or not collect them at all. I have two boats in the water right now that are bringing in adult seals, and the 10,000 beater seals are going to stay at sea.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Flood.

I have a question for Mr. Jones.

Mr. Jones, based on your vast fishery management experience and working with DFO, has DFO been overly cautious or protective in its approach to the threats of sanctions against our seafood exports related to the Marine Mammal Protection Act?

[Christopher Jones]

The feedback that I've received from my contacts in the industry in both provinces and throughout Atlantic Canada has been in regard to the introduction of the nuisance seal policy and also a recent response to the product being put in processing for bait products. It would appear that they have been very cautious. We're not sure—there are anecdotal references—of how it may impact trade with the U.S. We're looking at whether there were formal communications from the U.S. on that, rather than interpretative ones, but we haven't seen it.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I know that Bait Masters from P.E.I were attempting to use some seal by-products for lobster bait.

Do you think that the concerns are unfounded? Do you think that government officials are reacting to threats from animal rights activists and not basing their decisions on fact?

[Christopher Jones]

I'm now outside of government, but to answer that, I would say that lack of consultation with the fishing industry before the introduction of those policies suggests that the department is being cautious. As to why, I'm not sure I can allude to or give you any kind of direct response. I expect that overall it's the combination of ENGOs and also their reticence to want to enact any response from the U.S.

As to what we're seeing, we haven't seen consultations with the industry on the nuisance seal policy in particular. We haven't seen any tangible evidence from discussions or dialogue or communications with the U.S.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for six minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm handing off my questions to Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Jones, I think maybe you're in about the best position to answer this one. It's a mystery that has confounded this committee for a few years. When we were chatting with a chap from Norway and we asked him about the seal problem they used to have there, he kind of smiled a mysterious little smile and said, “Well, they just went away.”

Do you know what happened to make them go away in Norway?

[Christopher Jones]

I think in the Scandinavian countries they have a little different philosophy in their approach on ecosystem management, and yet I think they are one of the most substantial exporters of fish products to the U.S. Combined, the groups probably rival what Canada's exports are.

They are being very coy. As I think I mentioned earlier, in the Baltic Sea they are having the same problem we're experiencing. I think Norway realized it some years ago and put in a program whereby they started to balance the ecosystems.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's a little cryptic: Balancing the ecosystem—that kind of sounds like we're taking some seals out. How did they do it? Do we know?

[Christopher Jones]

To my understanding, they first went about determining the seal population. They had methodologies to determine the population. They were able to determine—they do have a limited seal hunt—how they would best balance the combination of predator and prey between seals and their fish stocks. As you know, they have some of the most substantial cod and haddock stocks in the world at this point, whereas at one time we did.

I think they're cautious about wanting to tell us what they've done, but if you look at the evidence, it's clear that they've done this gradually over a long period of time. As I mentioned earlier, their philosophy, from my experience of having been there and talking to some of these people, is a recognition of balance. It goes back to determining the population dynamics and the methodologies to determine how many seals they actually have.

That goes back to my point earlier, that until Canada has a management plan in terms of determining the number of seals there are, and using established methodologies that the Scandinavians have developed.... I think it will go a long way toward legitimizing any hunting or sealing activities when we can rely on a substantive plan based on facts.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Jones, can you tell us that whatever Norway did didn't seem to run afoul of the U.S. Marine Mammal Protection Act?

[Christopher Jones]

For some reason or other, it didn't.

You may recall that not only does Norway harvest seals, but it also has a whale hunt. How that isn't impacted by U.S. policy and acts is something.... I expect that either the U.S. worked out a bilateral agreement with Norway or that the U.S. has an understanding that if there is a proper stock status established, based on methodologies, it meets a standard that would enable imports of fish products, notwithstanding a seal and whale hunt.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We talk about trying to rationalize or justify hunting seals in order to reduce their number. As Mr. Calkins noted, it's like pushing a piano up the stairs with a rope to get that justification in place. It's mainly because of a public perception, and the threat from the United States that it could cut off the importation of other seafood products that we definitely want to sell to the United States.

If the idea is to reduce the number of seals out there, are there other ways? Maybe Madame Pieddesaux could comment. Is there birth control? Could we shoot a dart full of something into them so that there are no more little seals? Are there predators that could be introduced, although that's never worked out well for us?

We'll let you answer that.

[Stéphanie Pieddesaux]

The introduction of predators has already been done in the past to control other populations, and the evidence shows that it's not usually a good idea. The idea of sterilization campaigns was also floated, but at the moment, humans are short of proteins. So if the reduction of a particular species' population is desired, it would be ridiculous not to hunt it in order to use it. That, we feel, would be wasteful. If you're going to reduce the seal population, you might as well do so in a way that benefits from the protein and everything else that can be used to good effect, given that all parts of the animal are recoverable, including by-products.

We are therefore in favour of a hunt. Why not avail ourselves of being able to use the resource rather than waste energy to sterilize seals? It would amount to a straightforward loss of energy and funds, when it could otherwise be used to feed people and supply protein or other value-added items. As for the introduction of a predator…

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that. We've gone way over time.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Ms. Pieddesaux, please feel free to continue.

[Stéphanie Pieddesaux]

The introduction of a predator or of other factors is not recommended. However, as I was saying earlier in my address in connection with the prey-predator relationship, it often begins with a decline in prey, followed by a decline in predators. That being the case, we are expecting the decline phase for predators, meaning seals, to begin soon.

However, we are also entering a new climate change phase. That's where studies and models become really important for accurate forecasts of seal populations. We are expecting a lot of changes. I am in Gaspé at the moment, and we have been observing changes in water masses, temperatures and even stocks on an every day basis. We are concerned about lobster and fish stocks. When we pull lobsters out of the water, they are sluggish, and not as energetic as usual, because the temperature changes have led to a different sort of response.

So there will probably be changes in years to come, and they will have an impact on all populations; not just seals, but also fish and shellfish, among others. One thing is certain, and that is that we can expect the dynamics of animal populations in the Gulf of St. Lawrence to change. Unless there is a predictive model for this, we risk being surprised by the resulting scenarios, for seals and all fish species.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Does Fisheries and Oceans Canada have an important role to play in terms of predicting these major changes?

[Stéphanie Pieddesaux]

In consultations, the work being done by all organizations and institutions attempting to make predictions should be linked to what people working on production models are doing, in all the provinces. It's very important to work with industry. Fishers can see when lobster is not thriving. They see the signs right away because they are out there fishing and they can see the status of crab and lobster.

In terms of traceability, Quebec is lagging behind compared to the west coast, particularly for things like digital data on fisheries monitoring. There are gaps in the information we are receiving because it's not up-to-date. This lack of information on seafood traceability means ocean environment information that is out of date.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

You have fewer tools to respond effectively.

[Stéphanie Pieddesaux]

That's right.

This shortage of information leads to a delay. Having to wait 10 years before having access to information is much too long, particularly for climate changes. Over a 10 year period, water masses will have changed and the organisms will have already evolved.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I hope that Fisheries and Oceans Canada is hearing what you are asking for. We are in direct contact with the department, and will make recommendations.

What's your top recommendation?