Evidence of meeting #62 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Morley Knight  Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans (Retired), As an Individual
Mélanie Lemire  Associate Professor, Université Laval, Collectif Manger notre Saint-Laurent
Colombe Saint-Pierre  Chef-Owner, Restaurant Chez Saint-Pierre, Collectif Manger notre Saint-Laurent
Bill Penney  Business Developer, Mi'kmaq Commercial Fisheries Inc.
Christopher Jones  Director, Halifax East Fisheries Association
Stéphanie Pieddesaux  Industrial researcher, Merinov
Kendall Flood  Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

5:10 p.m.

Industrial researcher, Merinov

Stéphanie Pieddesaux

Funding for projects to digitize and modernize the industry! The certification process also needs to be improved, along with the communication process for authorizations in order to speed up the system. Seafood traceability needs to be done more quickly. Digitization needs to be speeded up. We're lagging too far behind.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

That, of course, means a little more money.

5:10 p.m.

Industrial researcher, Merinov

Stéphanie Pieddesaux

It's not just the money. Enhanced communication is also required.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

So it's important to improve communication with local industry stakeholders.

5:10 p.m.

Industrial researcher, Merinov

Stéphanie Pieddesaux

That's right, communication between the various departments and levels of government needs to be improved.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Does the United States' view of things impede you in your development and innovation work? Are you still working in accordance with the United States' position? Or are you going to forge ahead no matter what?

5:10 p.m.

Industrial researcher, Merinov

Stéphanie Pieddesaux

It was recently found that the American Marine Mammal Protection Act, the MMPA , was having a major impact on certifications from the Marine Stewardship Council, the MSC. International decisions and decisions made under the MMPA are affecting MSC decisions. It's a vicious circle.

Norway, for example, had all its MSC certifications withdrawn. The Norwegian government is now considering changing all of its standards for whales. Norwegian clients are approaching us, because we are accustomed to dealing with the whole issue of whales. A form of globalization is making everyone feel hindered by these regulations.

My view is that the problem is not so much one of regulation but rather discrepancies and incompatibilities between the regulations at different levels of government and the various certifications. Fishers and the industries are struggling with that, and it could prevent the industry from moving forward.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you very much.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. That's just a couple of seconds over.

We'll go to Ms. Barron now, for six minutes or less, please.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Flood.

When you were talking about the local and domestic market that had lineups for days for seal flippers at fish trucks, I was thinking about how my grandparents had a restaurant. I won't go on too long because I want to make sure you get your questions, but when I was a kid, they had a restaurant called Mr. B's. They sold specialty Newfoundland dishes, and one of their most popular dishes was seal flipper pie. I just wanted to acknowledge that.

In your opening statement, you talked about the vessels, processing plants and the infrastructure being there. Could you expand on that?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

Kendall Flood

There's a lot, so I'll talk quickly and see what I can do.

The three processors that are there right now can very easily, between them, handle 400,000 seals. In the heyday back in the early 2000s they were doing over 300,000 regularly, with space to spare. It's easy to keep going.

In terms of the harvesters, they go out in the boats—inshore harvesters in speedboats—up to 40-foot and 60-foot longliners. They're no longer allowed to use any boats larger than a 65-footer.

5:15 p.m.

A voice

Why?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

Kendall Flood

The question was why. A DFO regulation was put in. When everybody was harvesting 300,000 seals, they wanted to make sure that there were enough seals for the inshore harvesters to get as well, and not just for the people who had all the money for a big boat. That was the reasoning.

On a 65-footer, there are three main age groups of seals that you can get. You can get the beaters, which are the young ones. They're the ones used in the garment industry. That's 99% of all the seals, or more. On a 65-footer, you can get up to 5,000 beaters. They don't take the entire seal. They skin the seal on the ice and they take the skin with the fat, and some flippers for flipper pie.

At the next stage are the one- to two-year-olds, which are the bedlamer seals. You can fit approximately 2,500 of those on a boat. Bedlamer seals have very good backstraps, a loin that runs down the back. There's no fat and no bones; it's pure meat. There's not even a grain like a steak. If you're going to sell to a restaurant, that's the roast that you want to sell. On a beater it's too small, so it's not economically viable for the fishermen to take out. On a beater you're getting about 10 kilograms of fat per seal, and on a bedlamer, let's say about 25 kilograms.

Then there are the adult seals. A big adult seal can have 50 kilograms of fat and a much larger backstrap. The backstraps will range anywhere from two and a half to five kilograms. Again, this is huge meat. It's not quite as tender as a bedlamer for the restaurants, but if you were going to make jerky en masse, for instance, or if you were going to make stews or pet food, then that's the one you want to go to. That's the most economically viable one for a fisherman. If he was going to take an adult seal off the ice for full utilization, he'd take the pelt with the large fat and then he'd cut off the backstraps. We also have markets for hearts and for kidneys, and of course the penises are always viable from the adult seals.

You can get 800 to 1,000 adult harp seals on a boat. Again, the numbers all start changing if you start talking about hooded seals, which are two or three times the size, or grey seals, which are a couple of times the size as well.

How they bring these in is, again, by shooting them and skinning them. Holes for the flippers are cut off on the pelts. They run a rope through five or six of these. They pull it in with the crab hauler, bring it up with the boom and bring it down. They have all the infrastructure they need.

If the weather and the ice allow it, a single sealer can make six trips. If you're talking about adults to bedlamer to beater, they can start in December and they can go all the way into May and June. They can easily make six trips each, weather and ice permitting. That's where climate change makes a big difference.

For this year in particular, the ice was completely unpredictable. There would be no ice coming in, and then it would come in heavily. The wind would all of a sudden push it against the shore and break it up. It would disappear and then come back. It was very difficult.

Right now, one of our sealers just had to stop sealing and go all the way up to Bonavista so that his 65-footer wouldn't get crushed by the ice that was being blown towards him. He has to land in Bonavista, and we have to truck it up to the plant in Fleur de Lys, because the ice is blocking his way and he can't make it to our plant. It's very weather- and ice-dependent.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

I only have 30 seconds left. Perhaps you can expand a little bit more on the importance of value-added presentation for the global market.

5:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

Kendall Flood

For the value-added, if you cut off rough chunks of meat and you throw it in a box, it looks terrible and it's not going to sell. If you take bedlamer ribs and you vacuum-pack them and put them in a box in the same way that you see your pork ribs at the grocery store, everybody wants them. That goes for every single part of it. Forget trying to sell a great big roast when you can turn that into high-quality jerky. It's all about the secondary processing. That's where the money is and that's where the desire is.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We have pretty well seven minutes left, I guess, so we'll go to Mr. Calkins for five minutes or less. You're next on the list.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

I'll try to be as judicious as I can so others can talk.

Mr. Flood, could you clarify this monopoly issue, this provincial monopoly thing? Could you give me some clarification? I'm not following it.

5:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

Kendall Flood

I'll try to make this as fast as possible, which means that I'll skip some details.

In 2006, there were three existing processors. Combined, they were doing over 300,000 seals a year. Two of the processors were sending their skins abroad to be tanned, and in 2006, a law was passed such that all skins leaving Newfoundland had to be tanned first. That was to keep jobs in Newfoundland, and no problem: They did that. Shortly thereafter, when it collapsed, there was only one processor. That law hasn't changed. Then the government enacted another law that said you weren't allowed to use brine in curing seals—the primary step to tanning the seals—except for that one processor, which they grandfathered in, so when the new processors come along, they're not allowed.

In our case, we have 10,000 seals that we could sell tomorrow—the beater seals—but we're not allowed to harvest them. Adults are being brought to shore as we speak, and we could sell the skins for leather, but we're not allowed. We're not allowed to tan them. We're not allowed to sell them. I have customers in Canada and we have customers abroad, but we are not allowed to sell to them.

One of the other processors that is currently in operation started to tan, because they had customers. Their whole reason for starting was to sell skins. After they started, they were told that they weren't allowed to, and they're struggling to survive because they're not allowed to sell skins.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

You did miss some details there.

5:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

Kendall Flood

I missed a lot of details there.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

If you want to follow up with us, I think this committee would actually like to know about that. In the context of the way we talk to each other these days, I want to put it on the record that cod lives matter.

How many excess seals are there, actually, on the east coast, compared to historical numbers? I've heard that the historical numbers used to be two million. Now there are seven million, and I think we're just talking about the harp seals. How many actual excess...?

The quotas that have been allocated over time, whether they've been filled or not, in my opinion don't seem to be enough to actually create or move us back into some semblance of balance, regardless of whether we're able to even get to the quota. What would the quota need to be in order to, in a reasonable time frame, get back to historical levels of seals?

5:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Ár n-oileán Resources Ltd.

Kendall Flood

The quota hasn't changed in many years, and DFO has been perfectly open that they'll move the quota. If we hit 4,000, they'll move it to 5,000 or to 6,000.

There's no point in moving it if we take out just 25,000 or 30,000 seals a year. DFO says that just to maintain the population now, it's 425,000 to 450,000, and to start bringing it down, the number is about 600,000. There's no point in moving the quota if we don't take them out.

That's the processors. We have to take it out, and there's no question on that, but to get that out of the water, we have to focus on quality, so we need secondary processing.

Yes, there are market issues, but there is a huge demand in these countries. Sometimes there's the typical red tape. Sometimes it's a lot harder. Are there places where government can help on red tape? Absolutely, without question, and not just in the U.S.—everywhere.

You guys missed a huge opportunity on Monday when Romy was here. Romy herself didn't get asked any questions. She's been working for literally years on doing the paperwork and the red tape and stuff that she's been hit with on getting seal products into China through the Seals and Sealing Network. We're all working in that group, all the processors in Newfoundland and Total Océan, and trying to get things....

Romy is probably the biggest expert on that, so I highly recommend that you bring her back or at least reach out for information. She has been in this industry for years and she knows far more about that than I can speak on.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Thank you.

My last question is for Madame Pieddesaux.

There are farmers in Thailand right now who are growing crickets for human-consumption protein with tremendous success. How would you advise this committee? It seems odd to me that we can convince human beings to eat crickets but we can't convince human beings to eat seals, so what are we missing? What do we need to do to correct this bizarre scenario?

5:25 p.m.

Industrial researcher, Merinov

Stéphanie Pieddesaux

I don't want to eat crickets.

It's a question of balance. It has been a question of management. It's not that easy. It's ecosystem management, and it's not that simple.

It's easier to manage terrestrial animals than marine animals, first of all, because in marine management, everything is moving more than in terrestrial management. As I said earlier, we are entering a period when everything will move because of climate change, and we can already observe a lot of change.

Ten years ago, it would have been easier to take a decision like that. It would have been easier to take a decision to manage the population of seals 10 years ago, but now it's more delicate. It's more touchy to do something like that today, because we know that we are at a point where the harbour seal, as an example, is at the top of the predatory curve, and we know that the fish population is going down, so we are at the step where there is a gap and the population is supposed to go down.

Now we have to evaluate the risk of putting important pressure on the harp seal while knowing that there are changes that are coming, whereas we could have done something 10 years ago to manage the population.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that, Mr. Calkins. I'm so glad you were so generous with your five minutes.

I promised Mr. Morrissey one question before we end at 5:30 p.m.

Mr. Morrissey, go ahead quickly, please.