Evidence of meeting #32 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was oda.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Small  Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs
Alain Tellier  Deputy Director, Security and Privileges and Immunities Law Section, Department of Foreign Affairs
Graham Flack  Assistant Deputy Minister, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Angela Crandall

November 28th, 2006 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I call this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. At this meeting, number 32, we are here to discuss Bill C-293, An Act respecting the provision of development assistance abroad, pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, September 20, 2006.

We'll hear in the first hour from the Department of Foreign Affairs, from which we have today, Michael Small, assistant deputy minister for global issues, and Alain Tellier, deputy director of the criminal, security and privileges and immunities law section.

We welcome you. Thank you for submitting text of the remarks you're going to make this afternoon. After your remarks, we'll go into the first round and proceed from there.

Do we have a question from Mr. McKay?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

It's just a point of order, Chair. The Department of Finance is supposed to be here.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Yes, they are here as well. We're going to hear from the Department of Foreign Affairs and then the Department of Finance.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Are they going to present? I just wondered why they're not at the table.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Not at the same time. We'll go through the Department of Foreign Affairs and then the other department, as we said last week.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Is there a brief from the Department of Finance?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Yes, there is.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Have we got it yet?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You should have it, or the clerk will circulate it.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I don't have it.

3:35 p.m.

A voice

You should have it.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Welcome, and the time is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Michael Small Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before your committee. It is an honour for me to provide you with some of our observations on Bill C-293.

There are four basic points I would like to make today about the potential implications of draft Bill C-293. Under each point I will try to highlight for you the complications that could arise, depending on the final version of the bill, and complications that members may not have intended or have not yet had a chance to discuss or consider among yourselves.

First of all, in speaking about the “competent minister,” the bill needs to be sensitive to the diverse accountabilities involved in spending Canada's official development assistance—ODA, the shorthand term I'll use. The term “ODA” is a policy tool, negotiated among members of the OECD's development assistance committee to assist them in determining what kinds of international assistance should be counted as aid, and to give them, therefore, a basis for comparison of country-by-country aid statistics. It is not a definition that is established by legal statute.

For more than twenty years, and under different Governments, at least three different ministerial portfolios have been accountable for expenditure of Canadian ODA: the Minister of International Co-operation, who is responsible for the majority but not the totality of Canadian aid, through the Canadian International Development Agency; the Minister of Finance, who is responsible for Canada’s participation in the Bretton Woods institutions, the world’s largest providers of multilateral ODA; and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is responsible for payment of most of Canada’s assessed contributions to international organizations, a percentage of which is counted as ODA; and increasingly various kinds of peace- and security-related development assistance, some of which also count as ODA.

While the amounts of ODA allocated to each of these three portfolios that I've just referred to will vary over time, this basic division of labour between ministers is likely to endure. Thus, there is no one minister at present, or likely to be in the future, with an overarching responsibility for the management of all Canadian official development assistance.

In addition, a significant percentage of Canada’s ODA flows, currently about 3% or $130 million, are disbursed by the International Development Research Centre, or IDRC. While IDRC reports to Parliament through the Minister of Foreign Affairs, it is an autonomous decision-making body accountable to its independent board, as constituted by the IDRC Act. As IDRC has pointed out in its own written submission to this committee, there is a risk that Bill C-293 may conflict with these important provisions of the IDRC Act.

My second point is that committee members may wish to examine more carefully the implications of the language relating to human rights in the draft bill in paragraph 4(1)(c), specifically the call for Canadian ODA to be “consistent with Canada's international human rights obligations”. I specifically wish to focus your attention on the implications of the word “obligations” in this context.

Canada's human rights obligations derive from the international human rights treaties and conventions we have signed and ratified. These treaty obligations relate to the promotion and protection of human rights by the Government of Canada within the jurisdiction of Canada. Thus, the current reference to Canada's human rights obligations would have the effect of focusing the draft bill on the human rights of Canadians. It does not underline the role of ODA in promoting and protecting human rights internationally. Language to the effect that ODA activities should be “consistent with international human rights standards” would be in line with Canada's policy to promote and protect human rights internationally. Canada uses various review mechanisms, as specified by the human rights conventions that we have signed, to hold other governments accountable for their obligations for the human rights of their citizens. There is a risk that the reference to “Canada’s human rights obligations” in the bill might go beyond current state-to-state obligations that exist in international human rights law. It could also implicitly reduce the emphasis on recipient countries’ obligations towards their own citizens.

Thirdly, and turning to the specific responsibilities of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, it's important to point out that the poverty reduction test proposed in the act could affect the government's ability to fund core activities of a number of international organizations. That is because Canada's assessed contributions to different international organizations can, in varying degree, be counted as ODA, ranging from--and I'll give you a few examples--3% of our contribution for the World Intellectual Property Organization, WIPO, to 18% for the International Telecommunications Union, ITU, to 80% for the World Health Organization, and 100% for the Organization of American States, OAS.

I picked those to give you a sense of the range of the organizations. Those percentages, by the way, apply to all donor countries that claim official development assistance as part of their contributions.

The objectives of these organizations are varied, hence the different percentages of the contributions that can be counted as ODA. Canada is, of course, only one country among many that belongs to each of these organizations, and the programs and priorities of these international organizations are determined by their entire membership. Thus, the committee may wish to avoid asking the minister responsible for these contributions to certify that each of these international organizations observe a Canadian-legislated standard for how it spends the ODA portion of its budget.

My final and most important point reflects on how tightly and how precisely the committee, and in future a government bound by the act, would wish to hold Canadian ODA expenditures to the goal of reducing poverty. This is a narrower focus for Canadian ODA than the OECD definition, which defines the goal of ODA as “promoting the economic development and welfare of developing countries”.

Much of Canadian development assistance contributes to the goal of poverty reduction in developing countries, but some of it does so only indirectly and over a longer period of time, through such means as increasing citizen security, encouraging better governance, improving policies and policy-making capacity, and promoting respect for human rights.

The Department of Foreign Affairs, in particular through the human security program and the global peace and security fund, spends ODA for all the purposes I have mentioned.

I'll give you some examples from the last fiscal year of program spending, which has counted as official development assistance spent by the Department of Foreign Affairs. This could include mine action and education programs, or mine awareness programs; the deployment of corrections training officers to Côte d'Ivoire; the purchase and transfer of a secure e-mail system to improve international criminal justice cooperation in the Americas; witness protection training in Brazil; seminars on crime scene investigations in Central America; assistance in border management for the Palestinian Authority; human rights training in Indonesia; and support for the Colombian peace process.

Examples of potential funding for this current fiscal year from the Department of Foreign Affairs include financial support for the peace talks in south Sudan; support for prison reforms; gang member rehabilitation; the deployment of corrections officers and anti-money laundering activities in Haiti; and support for civilian peacekeeping missions via the RCMP.

While an indirect connection can be drawn between each of these activities and poverty reduction, a direct connection cannot be made in each and every case. If these kinds of programs and projects continue to be deemed worthwhile by Parliament, it would be unfortunate if they had to be terminated in order to comply with a strict interpretation of a poverty focus for Canadian development assistance.

Depending on how strictly the poverty focus for Canadian development assistance is interpreted, the government could be placed in the awkward position of, on the one hand, being expected to report these expenditures to the OECD as official development assistance, while on the other hand not being able to report them to Parliament as development assistance because they do not meet all the legal requirements of this act.

To conclude, I'd like to repeat what all G-8 leaders highlighted at their summit this past July in St. Petersburg, and I'm quoting now from the declaration:

Multilateral and regional organizations and states have focused significant resources on developing new tools for S&R in recent years. Individual states are trying to make better use of their national resources by integrating defense, development and diplomatic capabilities in support of joint planning and strategy for stabilization and reconstruction.

This approach has been welcomed and encouraged by the development assistance committee of the OECD, to which Canada belongs. The OECD currently has important programs under way to harmonize donor best practices in fragile states, to better understand and integrate security system reforms into development programs and to clarify how ODA in these contexts is both defined and applied by donors.

We're proud to say that Canada has been at the forefront of these activities designed to increase the coherence and transparency of donor activities in support of international peace and security.

Thank you for your time and your patience.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Small.

As I understand it, Mr. Tellier, you both are together. We'll go into the first round.

Thank you for coming and thank you, again, for the concerns that you bring forward here. As a committee, I think we all want to see some positive legislation brought forward, and we appreciate your input to that.

Mr. McKay for the first seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your presentation, Mr. Small.

I want to go through your four points, if I may, the first having to do with “competent minister”. You seem to think this is a difficulty. The competent minister in the proposed bill is defined as being “any minister designated by the Governor in Council to provide development assistance”. And you rightly indicated that aid is distributed by Foreign Affairs, by Finance, and by the CIDA minister.

I can't fathom your point, though. At any given time, any one or all is responsible and is “the competent minister”. Are you inviting the committee to redefine the competent minister to be only the CIDA minister? It seems to me that this is the exact phrasing you need in the bill, because the minister responsible for distributing aid may well change over time. So I don't take your point.

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs

Michael Small

Would you like me to respond to each question?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

It's Mr. McKay's time. He's asked that question, so go ahead and respond.

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs

Michael Small

My point is simply the one that you've in fact made, that over time experience has shown that more than one minister and more than one portfolio is involved in expending official development assistance.

As I recall, there's one element later on in the act that refers to “the minister” in a reporting function, and I simply wanted to set the context for my subsequent remarks by reinforcing the role that at least three ministers and departments have made, including the two that have been called here today.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

My view of it is that the bill already responds to the issue you've raised.

Number two is with respect to your issue, “human rights obligations”. I actually agree that we should change it to “international human rights standards”.

So there are two points. The third point has to do with, if you will, the mix and the match of what is ODA-able and what is not ODA-able. I think points three and four of your presentation are actually the same point.

It is true, the core of the bill will require the relevant competent minister to draw a line between this aid and how it connects to poverty alleviation. If he or she is unable to make that connection, it doesn't necessarily terminate the aid; it just means it doesn't fall within the ODA definition.

Of the programs you list here, none is actually in jeopardy. What the issue would be is whether they fall within ODA, and if the relevant minister can't connect the line between the money and the ODA, then there's a choice to be made. They can either not pursue the program, or they can pursue the program but not out of ODA funds.

Is that a fair comment? Do you agree with that analysis?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs

Michael Small

Not completely. Let me present some clarifications that follow from the remarks I made.

First of all, let's take the case of the international organizations. I take the spirit and the direction you've been spelling out about how the act could be implemented and would be applied, and I appreciate them.

In the case of the international organizations—I cited several, and we could cite many more—the minister in question, or Canada, would remain a member of those organizations. We would, I think, continue to have an interest, because those can be counted as ODA and be recorded towards Canada's overall ODA expenditures. Certainly every other country that's a member, let's say, of the Organization of American States would be doing that too.

At the same time, Canada does not, of course, control those expenditures. They're something that is negotiated, and the activities cover a wide range of actions. With some of them you could draw a direct line to some programs, to poverty alleviation; with others you could not. But overall it's been determined that we would want to count a percentage, by a standard formula, of our contribution as ODA.

I take note of your point that this wouldn't terminate our membership in that organization. But there is an interest in, and I know this committee has debated in other contexts, Canada's overall ODA flows. Let me just point out that every country that is a donor also counts, because it's been determined legitimate to count them towards your ODA expenditures, a percentage of contributions to international organizations, and Canada is one of the relatively biggest donors to many of those organizations.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I would discourage Canada from participating in any one of those organizations, and in fact from expanding its commitment to anything you've itemized here.

What I perceive Parliament to be telling the government is that there has to be some connection to poverty reduction. There has to be some connection to taking into account perspectives of the poor, which has to be connected to international human rights standards. It is an attempt to focus rather than to make it more difficult, if you will, for any minister.

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs

Michael Small

Let me add two more points in response.

First of all, if I can go back to the “competent minister,” I also would like, in my first point, to call the committee's attention to the potential difficulties vis-à-vis IDRC and the IDRC Act. I wanted to put that on the record. They've written separately to the committee. It's something you may wish to take into account when you're considering the act.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I've read their brief and I take their point. I appreciate that the director or the chair of IDRC reports in some fashion to a minister at this point in time. I think that's a separate issue, and maybe this committee would want to review the mandate of IDRC for the purposes of seeing whether it in fact is doing what Parliament asked it to do. In effect, in this bill Parliament is asking the government to be very consistent with poverty alleviation. I really don't have any serious objection to a review of the mandate.

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs

Michael Small

The issue and the context of the points in which I raised it really reports to the IDRC's particular role under the act in terms of its reporting relationship. While it reports through a minister, it's actually decision-making bodies...it's accountable to its own board, so that's a factor.

The second larger point, which we can come back to and explore a bit further, is the one I pointed out, and it may already be well taken into account. There is a significant difference between the way ODA has been defined and progressively evolves over time, the definition, as it's applied by the development assistance committee, the OECD, and the approach you were just speaking of, of taking a poverty focus. There is a fair difference in breadth. That difference in breadth will have an impact on the application of the law and the way ministers choose to report expenditures to Parliament.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I appreciate the point, but that is the point of the bill, that there has been some wandering off in a variety of directions, and this is an attempt to get us back to the point of poverty review.