Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Either one of you, can you solve the Afghanistan problem?

Ms. Boulden, you're first up.

[Dr. Jane Boulden]

Yes, a simple question, but it goes to some of the points I was making.

One of them is sequencing. I think Kandahar, in particular, makes two points. One is that it matters what you do in the very early days after a peace agreement or at the end of a conflict. Part of the argument, I think, about why Kandahar and that region is where it is today relates to the fact that although there was early strong response, it then faded out quickly, or relatively quickly, while resources got diverted elsewhere. But it also raises the question about whether you can do any of these other tasks—democracy development, engaging with civil society, and so on—when you're in a fundamentally insecure situation.

I think you can do some things, but this is an example where security matters a great deal and the economics of the equation matter a great deal, because the security is fundamentally tied, at least to the extent I understand it, to things like the poppy growing as well as to border issues with Pakistan. Until we—we meaning not only Canada, but more broadly the international community—get a better grip on that, I think there is a limit to what we can achieve on the other fronts. But it's not an argument for not staying the course on those other fronts, so that we're there when the next stage is ready.

I don't think that answered you, but....

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you. Is it Professor Boulden?

[Dr. Jane Boulden]

Yes, sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, Professor, thank you.

Mr. Foster.

[John W. Foster]

You asked a simple question; there's no simple answer.

I have to say that fundamentally it's an Afghan question. I'm heavily influenced by Robert Fisk, whose point of view is somewhat akin to that of the former Russian military man who wrote in the Globe and Mail last week that if you replace “U.S.S.R.” with “Canada” or “U.S.” or “U.K.”, history repeats itself.

That doesn't satisfy me from the point of view of democratization and human rights, but the history and complexity of Afghanistan and its own way of governing has—what can we say—defeated external intervenors over the last hundred years or maybe much longer, and I think that to respond to the situation with Leopard tanks is reprehensible. One has to therefore ask oneself how the variety of Afghans in the country come into a situation of interaction that is non-violent. Nobody has an easy answer, but that's the direction we have to move in .

I don't believe that military success is possible. I know much less about it than Professor Boulden, but I'm influenced by reading Fisk and others who have some considerable knowledge. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Foster, and thank you to the committee.

Thank you, both of you, for coming. We stretched the testimony out a little longer than the ten minutes each, and I think some excellent information is on the record, and we'll be able to access it. But also thank you for your very frank and honest answers. We appreciate it.

We will suspend very briefly. Our other guests are here, and we want to hear from them as quickly as possible.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll call this meeting back to order. We have in our second hour the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, no strangers to our committee, certainly. Superintendent David Beer, who has been here, has had a fairly extensive amount of time in Haiti and has been part of our study on Haiti. Now we welcome him back, together with.... I'm trying to be certain here of the title; anytime I see “Commr” I know it's not “commissioner”.

It's assistant commissioner. All right.

It's still assistant?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar, Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Yes, it is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right; thank you.

It's Raf Souccar, assistant commissioner for federal and international operations. Certainly on a day when the RCMP is in the news, they are here to talk about democratic development around the world and some of the experiences they have had.

We apologize for the timing. We had a vote after question period, and it set us back 20 minutes, I suppose, so we have gone overtime.

Can you stay beyond 5:30?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right; thank you.

I should have asked the rest of the committee whether or not they could stay beyond 5:30.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

You should ask the members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, but in a way, as long as I have the RCMP on my side, I feel all right.

We will hear from you. If you could keep your presentations to ten minutes or even less, that would be great. Welcome here.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, honoured members.

Monsieur le président, membres du comité, good afternoon, and thank you for inviting me and my colleague here today to discuss Canadian civilian police peacekeepers and the role they play in democratic development around the globe.

I am joined today by Chief Superintendent Dave Beer, who obviously is not a stranger to this committee. Dave is the director general of international policing within Federal and International Operations and, as I'm sure you know, has a great deal of experience in international peace operations. With his help I'm sure and I'm hopeful that we'll be able to answer most of your questions.

As you know, stability and the rule of law are essential if democracy is to thrive.

For the past 17 years, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has been assisting the forces of law and order in countries throughout the world. It has done this in partnership with other Canadian police services since 1996.

Through much of that time, Canadian police operations abroad have received little attention. Public knowledge of these contributions continues to be low. With new permanent funding for the program and increasing requests from international organizations for more Canadian police, that may soon change. While studies indicate that the number of conflicts in the world has decreased over the last decade, the security gap resulting from conflicts in failing and failed states has created an environment in which organized crime and terrorist organizations have become deeply entrenched. This has a direct impact on the democratization process.

We now know the creation and maintenance of a secure and stable environment requires more than just the end of armed conflict. It requires the development of competent security sector institutions, such as police, the judiciary and corrections.

Through the new Canadian police arrangement, which is the policy framework for the Government of Canada to deploy police officers in support of Canadian foreign policy objectives, Canada will have the capacity to deploy up to 200 police officers to international peace operations by the end of fiscal year 2007-08. While this is an important contribution to international peace and security, it does not meet the growing demand for police on international peace operations.

Globalization, trans-national crime and environmental challenges have placed significant pressure on the RCMP to develop and improved capacity to work beyond the country's boundaries. This has required to RCMP to develop and maintain the capacity to select, prepare, deploy, support and re-integrate specialized personnel around the world in response to emergencies and international criminal investigations.

Working abroad on Canadian investigations requires foreign police partner organizations that can conduct investigations in a manner consistent with international standards. This will necessitate substantial investment in the development of international police partner capacity. Until the signing of the new CPA this past spring, funding for Canadian police participation in peace operations was provided on a cost-recovery basis, with no added human resource capacity. Things have now changed.

Canada now has the ability to become proactive in its approach to international police operations, working with other government agencies in a whole-of-government approach through the identification of areas of strategic interests and the development of personnel with the competencies necessary to respond to the challenges of working in these environments. What this means for the RCMP and our police partners is that we are now in a position to develop a cadre of police experts ready for international deployments. Our roster of skill sets can match specialists with particular missions that call for their talents. The result will be that these men and women will be available for more rapid deployments than in the past, and perhaps best of all, deployments will reduce the burden on the domestic policing capability of our agency and its partners.

Of course, Canada cannot be all things to all people. It is important that resources be aligned with foreign policy objectives and, through a whole-of-government approach, strategies must be developed that adequately respond to the long-term nature of democratization and post-conflict development.

Over the years, Canada has helped many countries become safer and more secure, laying the groundwork for democratic development. Some examples include the following.

In Kosovo, Canadian police made an important contribution to the development of the new Kosovo police service.

In Jordan, Canadian police have helped to train more than 34,700 Iraqi police cadets, far more than the original target of 32,000.

In Kabul, Afghanistan, they have helped increase parliamentary security. In the south of that country, in Kandahar, they have distributed equipment, provided weapons training, as well as motor vehicle and checkpoint training. They've helped repair broken-down police vehicles and helped construct a new substation.

In Bosnia and Herzegovina , they've helped prepare and prosecute cases that have resulted in indictments, arrests, and convictions in high-profile cases involving politicians and criminal organizations.

In the Ivory Coast, they have contributed to a reduction in racketeering activities in market areas where police have increased patrols.

In Haiti, they have worked to improve professional standards for police and have increased the effectiveness of the Haitian National Police's Anti-Kidnapping Unit.

And in Sierra Leone, their work with a special court for that country has helped with the prosecution of numerous individuals from the three main combatant groups in the civil war. They have also developed a witness protection program and increased the capacity of the financial investigations unit to prepare complex cases such as that against former president Charles Taylor.

These are just a few of the results that have been achieved.

Experience has demonstrated that police play an important role in the maintenance of a secure and stable environment, which, as I suggested before, is a precursor to economic, political, and social development. Through their efforts abroad, Canadian police export Canadian culture, values, and an established model of democratic policing.

Lessons from past experiences demonstrate that sustained development requires a long-term commitment. Failure to plan for this and to ensure the resources necessary to maintain a long-term engagement risks causing more harm than good to the recipients of the services provided.

Experience has also shown that successful security sector reform requires strategies that target the equal development of judicial, police, and corrections capacity. To put it another way, police aren't much good in the absence of courts that can fairly weigh the evidence against the accused and modern correctional institutions that can receive those found guilty.

It's important to ensure that each of these elements has the tools necessary to do their jobs and that people are paid an appropriate salary on a regular basis. I should note that while other countries are beginning to recognize the value of police capacity-building in Africa, Canada is clearly in the lead, positioning itself to have continental reach.

Consistent with Canada's G8 commitments to develop African capacity, the RCMP has been working in partnership with the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre, a private, non-government organization, to develop the capacity of African organizations to provide leadership on peace operations.

Significant progress has been made in the development of African capacity to deploy police personnel with the competencies necessary to function effectively on peace operations.

The continued support of this type of capacity-building initiative in Africa and expanded to other areas of the Canadian strategic interest is essential if we are to ensure safe Canadian homes and communities.

In terms of overseas public order capacity, while most Canadian police organizations have developed a public order capacity, it is generally insufficient to deploy entire units abroad. Any contribution to the required public order capacity in international peace operations should be of a capacity-building or instructional nature.

Another important lesson is that Canadian police require adequate training prior to being deployed abroad. An increased investment in pre-deployment and other specialized training, especially within an integrated environment--and when I say integrated, I'm talking about the military and civilian police--would significantly enhance the ability of Canadians to contribute to the accomplishment of established goals and objectives.

With this, I thank you for the opportunity to be here and to address you. Along with Chief Superintendent Beer, I would be pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll go into the first round very quickly, and we will do a split between Mr. Martin and Mr. Wilfert. Is that correct?

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

That is correct.

Thank you very much, Assistant Commissioner Souccar--I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly--and Chief Superintendent Beer.

First I want to say that I've had the privilege of seeing the work that your officers have done in both Jordan and Sierra Leone, and it is truly outstanding. As a reflection, the other countries that were there, without prompting, also said that the Canadian officers working there were doing an absolutely phenomenal job. So congratulations, and thank you.

As a plug, while I have you here, in terms of an RCMP human resources issue, if I can just say, some of your RCMP officers in Canada who have been at a particular site for more than ten years are being moved around. I ask if you would consider, within human resources, dealing with each individual. Maybe they would like to move, but sometimes, if they've laid down roots, you're losing officers to municipal police forces. At least if a human resources person could speak to them and say they could maybe work something out.... Could that please be done? Because you're really losing some of your best officers to municipal forces, and the communities are losing some of our best people. That's an aside. While I had you here, I thought I'd do that.

What is needed in terms of legislative policies and resources that would enable you to deal with the very complex environment you're dealing with in terms of organized crime?

My second question is whether you think that, within Afghanistan, one of the major deficits is the training of Afghan police, who are being paid only $70 a month and receiving only eight days of training. That is something other countries could really work with us on, because doing that would assist in the security on the ground in Afghanistan.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Maybe before we get the answer, we'll take Mr. Wilfert's question, as well, very quickly.

Go ahead, Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, gentlemen.

Following up on the last question, when I visited Afghanistan in May, the RCMP officers, in conjunction with a representative from the City of Charlottetown, indicated that obviously more resources were required in order to get out into the field to do the kind of work they need to do, particularly in the areas of training, etc.

What kinds of evaluations are done by them to you, and what do you do with those evaluations once you receive them in order to respond to trying to create a truly national--in this case a truly national Afghan--police force, which is often very much localized in terms of from where they select people, that is, from their home districts?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Wilfert.

Assistant Commissioner, or Chief Superintendent Beer.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Maybe I'll answer, and then I know Dave will have more to add, with his wealth of knowledge.

In terms of resources, which was the first question that was asked, resources with respect to peace operations have always been an issue for us to the extent that we never had resources specifically for that purpose. The resources that we deployed abroad for any of these peace operations came out of our current A-base resources that either worked highway patrol, traffic, general duty, drugs, customs, immigration--all the sundry duties we have in the RCMP.

So we had to take police officers out of duties, leaving a hole in that spot where we were already feeling the pinch, and then deploy them abroad. It was on a cost-recovery basis, but it wasn't the money we needed; it was the bodies that we needed in Canada to do the work they were assigned to do.

Under the Canadian police arrangement, we did get financing for 152 positions for this year, 2006-07, and by April 1 there will be 200 deployable positions that will be able to go abroad. It's going to take a little time to be able to hire people, with the attrition that we have in the RCMP right now, put them through training in Regina, and get them out. The ramp-up will be a little slow, but we're doing our best to give this a priority because we understand the priority the government is placing on these types of initiatives.

In terms of the second part of your question.... I think I addressed your first part with respect to resources.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

It was resources, sir, and also legislative policies. What laws could we or should we pass that would enable you to be able to do your job to prosecute people in the environment you're dealing with today, particularly in view of organized crime? I know there are obstacles that are very frustrating for the force. What legal changes do we need to pass in Parliament that would give you the ability and powers to be able to go after these people effectively?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

You're talking about Canadian operations--

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Correct.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

--that target organizations that are abroad or within Canada.