Evidence of meeting #49 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Angela Crandall
Houchang Hassan-Yari  Professor, Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada
David Van Praagh  Journalist, As an Individual

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's been over a year since the brutal murders of Mr. and Mrs. Ianiero, and still there is no justice.

There were two individuals from Thunder Bay, Dr. Cheryl Everall and Ms. Kimberly Kim, who, according to the Attorney General of Quintana Roo, are primary persons of interest still. If any of you saw the W-FIVE program the other night, it was pretty clear and irrefutable that they are not. These ladies at the present time are held hostage in their own country, afraid to travel. They are very concerned that they may be detained and could be thrown in jail because of what I would suggest, with all due respect, has been a very bungled investigation and a question of the Mexican authorities' suggesting that Canadians are responsible for something that is not the case.

These two individuals have asked the minister and/or ministers to clear their names. They don't know if they're on a no-fly list. They don't know if they're able to travel. It is incumbent upon this committee to ask these ministers to come forward and provide us, at the earliest opportunity, answers to these questions, which they have up until now not been able to receive.

It is a travesty that we expect our government to protect Canadians and certainly to advance Canadian interests abroad. In this case, this has been a miscarriage. I do believe that in the interests not only of these two individuals but also of the Ianiero family as well, the government should put as much pressure as possible on Mexican authorities, and that we should immediately deal with clearing the names of these two individuals, who through no fault of their own have been identified by Mexican authorities even when all of the evidence points in a different direction.

With respect, Mr. Chairman, I have put this forward to invite both ministers here to answer those questions. It will advance the interests of justice in this particular case.

Thank you.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Wilfert.

Mr. Obhrai.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me first give my condolences and respect to Mr. Ianiero on this tragic incident, and also to the two young ladies. We understand, and we take this concern very seriously.

These are Canadian citizens. As you know, the government and the Prime Minister have repeatedly said that they will stand up for Canadian citizens. We will be totally engaged on this file to ensure that the rights of Canadian citizens are protected, according to Canadian law, not somebody else's law.

As my friend has pointed out, there are a lot of things taking place that are outside the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada. They are the Mexican authorities' jurisdiction. The Mexican authorities will continue their investigation, and we cannot interfere.

The W-FIVE program, all the other programs, as well as the news conferences that were done are the right ways to bring this case to light. We have no problems with that. However, from the government's point of view, it is absolutely not possible to tell the Mexican authorities what to do.

What we can do, and what we have done, is to engage the minister and the Prime Minister with the Mexican officials at the highest level, to tell them to bring this case to justice as quickly as possible. We are constantly engaging with the highest level there. We have offered our services to assist in this investigation, and the Mexican authorities have declined.

My minister and the Prime Minister are in contact with the families.

You are absolutely right that there is uncertainty for these ladies. They need to be cleared as quickly as possible so they can carry on with their lives and a closure is brought to this case.

So we are engaged. As you know, international diplomacy requires that we engage behind the scenes and put pressure on the Government of Mexico to run this investigation in the fairest possible manner.

I want to repeat, again, what the Prime Minister has said. Canada will stand behind Canadian citizens' rights on the international scene. That is what we'll do.

The minister has been here on many occasions, but to call him here does not really advance the cause. As I've stated--and the members who have been in the government know that--it is far more effective to work behind the scenes with the government to bring this to a speedy resolution.

Under no circumstances is this an intent not to do anything or to not meet the intent of the motion. The approach is to reach the same goal as the motion. We want to do that, and we will continue to do that.

We feel we would be far more effective behind the scenes in putting pressure on the Government of Mexico. But we must all remember that it is the Government of Mexico. Unfortunately, this crime took place--it should never have taken place--in a different country with a different jurisdiction. Canada does not have the legal authority. It does not have anything that would allow it to go into somebody else's country and tell them what to do.

What Canada has is an ability to influence, to put pressure, and to ask that they expedite this as quickly as possible.

So at this stage the government, as I said, has a different approach. So even if our members are going to vote against this motion, it does not mean at all that the intent is not there and that we are not working towards this thing. We are working very, very hard to achieve the same goals that you have, that we have, and that they have. It's just the approach is slightly different, that's all.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.

Madam McDonough, and then Mr. McTeague.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Thank you very much.

I have to say that I found it a bit chilling when I listened to that explanation for why it's not appropriate for members of Parliament to engage around this issue through their parliamentary committee on foreign affairs and international development.

I can't help but think the same line of argument was actually offered up at various points for why we shouldn't concern ourselves with the issue of Maher Arar, that we can't do anything about the Syrian government, they do what they want to do, or that we can't do anything about the U.S. government, they do what they want to do, so let's just let it get solved in some other way.

I want to support the motion and the intent of the motion, but I want to make a small friendly amendment. I hope it doesn't seem unfriendly for me to be doing so, but I'm a tiny bit concerned about the wording, that we are asking that the ministers affected come before the committee to answer questions pertaining to the murders. I'm not sure that we can even intend that they be asked to answer questions pertaining to the murders.

I think what we want to do is to have them come before the committee at the earliest opportunity to answer questions pertaining to, and here's my friendly amendment, “the government's efforts to obtain justice in regard to”, and then continue as it's worded, “the murders of Dominic and Nancy Ianiero in Cancun, Mexico”.

I suggest that for two reasons, frankly. I think that whether it's the Ianiero family, who remain utterly, totally distraught, or the two women from Thunder Bay, whose lives have been a living hell since the day they were cast completely improperly and unfairly under suspicion, we absolutely have a responsibility as members of Parliament to address this.

It's not an issue that gets resolved by addressing it in question period other than to keep it before the government and try to keep the heat on, but I think we're interested in trying to get to the bottom of what has been done, what can be done that hasn't been done. We have a responsibility to do that, as it affects all of these people whose lives are just in limbo.

So I would commend to all committee members that small friendly amendment in support of the intent and the remaining content of the motion that's before us.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam McDonough. I know that we've heard a number of times in question period this question being asked and answered by the minister. We've heard that the minister and the Prime Minister have addressed this and take this very seriously. I think your friendly amendment is obviously in order.

When I read this, too, it almost looks like you're asking for evidence in regard to it that the minister would not have. We want to know what we're doing to proceed with justice from the government's position. We will leave that to Mr. Wilfert, if it's friendly.

Mr. Wilfert.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Before I comment on Ms. McDonough's friendly amendment, I just want to point out that the Minister for Public Security indicated that Foreign Affairs Canada can obtain additional information with respect to police investigations, arrests, and court proceedings.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Wilfert, could I just have you speak on whether or not that amendment would be a friendly amendment, and then—

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I'm doing so, Mr. Chair. I'm pointing out the rationale as to why I had worded it in the way I did.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right, continue.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

He said that Foreign Affairs does have access to information regarding police investigations, arrests, and court proceedings.

Obviously, my intent for the motion is to bring a speedy conclusion. I'm trying to get the minister to clear the names of these individuals, whose lives at the moment, and Ms. McDonough is quite right, have been a living hell. They are unable to travel, and there's a cloud.

I will accept Madam McDonough's friendly amendment but remind the committee that Foreign Affairs has access to this information. Therefore, that's why I'm calling the minister, because I am convinced that the minister will be able to shed light in that regard.

If it in fact moves this motion forward with the intent to get these names cleared as quickly as possible and also to bring closure at some point very quickly to the Ianiero family as well, I think this is extremely important. So I would accept, Mr. Chairman, the friendly amendment on that basis.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Wilfert.

Mr. McTeague.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

This issue is probably the most important consular issue at the most important time in our relationship with Mexico. The family of Dominic and Nancy Ianiero--one member was here today, Mr. Anthony Ianiero--and those who have been unfairly blindsided by this--Cheryl Everall and Kimberly Kim, who are also with us here today--deserve a full, appropriate, complete, and transparent explanation as to what transpired and what has led the Mexican officials to now declare that this case is over.

Mexico may believe this case is over, but Canadian parliamentarians do not. Out of an interest between the two countries, with over a million Canadians travelling to that destination every year, whether it is the Ianiero case, whether it is the Shawn Potts case, or whether it is the Brenda Martin case, there is a certain concern that has been raised by most Canadians that our consular and diplomatic efforts are not good enough if we do these things behind closed doors.

The former Mexican President has upheld the view of the Attorney General of Quintana Roo, despite his own police investigation that has cleared Ms. Everall and Ms. Kim, and has declared that he believes these two Canadians are guilty of those heinous murders of Canadians.

I've spent a bit of time on consular cases, as you know, and not once in my two or three years doing that job was the question asked in the House of Commons pertaining specifically to a case that was under my tenure. Yet there have been many questions asked of the minister. In 30 seconds of question and response we can't get the kinds of answers we so clearly deserve if we are going to continue to enhance our efforts with Mexico. I think it's important for Mexico to come clean on this, but at the same time to also recognize that it is in Canada's interest as well to ensure that we continue to give Canadians an assurance of a modicum of protection and safety when they're travelling to that country.

It is by all accounts no surprise to anybody here that the investigative abilities of most Mexican officials are negligent, poor, and incapable of protecting Canadians, let alone their own citizens. I have no difficulty talking about the Mexican jurisprudence and saying that we cannot interfere with their system, but that catch phrase cannot be used as a defence to allow Canadians to be continuously left to fend for themselves, with only the rare consular visit they get, or the lip service we often give to these important cases.

So I not only support the motion by Mr. Wilfert, but I think it would give the ministers a golden opportunity to explain once and for all what has been done and what should be done, and answer, canvass, and perhaps field questions as to whether or not Canada's diplomatic effort should include--as was suggested yesterday by Ms. Everall and Ms. Kim--a diplomatic protest.

I don't know what the answers are. I know that our diplomatic efforts up to this point have failed. They've not only failed Canadians, but they continue to potentially damage our reputation, our trade relationship, and our tourism industry with Mexico. This is not in Mexico's interest, and it's certainly not in Canada's interest.

So I think it's extremely important for us to bring this issue to light in a two-hour session with both ministers responsible, given all that has been said. We need to not just talk about engaging at the highest levels, but deal with what I think most Canadians expect, which is a government that's prepared to stand up for them when they wind up in difficulty. If indeed the minister has done these things, he will have an opportunity to explain them. The minister will also perhaps have an opportunity to hear, from the wisdom of many of the members who have been sitting on this committee for many years, recommendations that should take place with respect to Mexico.

My colleague, Mr. Obhrai, spoke very passionately about what has been done. I want to clarify for him, in case he didn't see the press conference yesterday, that the minister has not indeed followed up with his commitment to have contact with the families. We know that we have within the Department of Foreign Affairs a very dedicated and strong group of individuals who work tirelessly at the consular level, but they cannot work if they do not have political support. I'm suggesting there has to be a much better and more coordinated effort. This too could arise from this case.

We do not want, with respect to Mexico or any other country, a repeat of what could have been done at the early stages. For instance, there should be a protocol with the Mexican officials to allow Canada to collaborate, as it does with many other nations, with investigative abilities at the outset. Then important and crucial evidence wouldn't be compromised. Evidence was compromised to the extent that not only did we not get to the bottom of who killed Dominic and Nancy, but we also compromised the integrity and innocence of Canadians, which I think is both unfair and wrong.

And to all Canadians who are watching this, who have seen this thing unfold, I think it is a travesty for us not to have reacted. As I predicted in February 2006, we are probably never going to see the end of this. It is 14 to 15 months after that incident. It is clear to me that if we don't get it right at the beginning, we are never going to get it right.

And that's not something I'm here to chastise the minister about; I'm simply here to point out to the minister that more can be done. Allow his consular officials to do a better job; give them the resources and the political profile, and, by all means, in the interests of both countries, let's augment our diplomatic relations with those two nations so this never happens again, for the sake of justice.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

I don't think there's a Canadian, and I know there's no one on this committee, who would not somehow move or wave a magic wand and solve this thing if we could. I'll tell you, it is maddening when we have Canadians dragged through what this family has been through. We have been frustrated at that level of negotiations.

I guess I really do question whether.... My question isn't just whether this is going to achieve a lot, but what else could this committee do? Maybe through this exercise we can come up with some ideas that could take us even a little further.

We have a speaking list here, if our clerk would....

Madame Lalonde.

Madame Barbot, was your name on the list? I'm going to go to Madame Barbot first, as I think she asked first. Her name is not on the list, so I apologize.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

I wonder why I'm never on the list! Nevertheless....

This case goes much further than an issue involving a family that has had and is continuing to have problems. I think that after the Maher Arar case, we clearly cannot remain silent or say that the government and officials are doing their jobs. We have to push the appropriate services to go as far as they can. We are not questioning the Canadian government, we do not want to question the minister to have him tell us that this is as far as he will go. We want him to go beyond that and to ensure not only that such situations do not happen again, but also that the family in question gets the answers it is asking for. It has not received any answers.

You spoke about magic, Mr. Chairman. We are far from magic here, we're in the concrete, day-to-day life of a Canadian family who was struck by a tragedy and has not had any answers from the Canadian government. I can assure you that in some ridings, we deal with people who travel a great deal. This type of situation is happening more and more. That is why we need to take this opportunity to tell the government that we want them to adopt measures to protect the Canadians abroad not only to reassure the families, but to ensure that justice will be done.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Ms. Barbot.

You have the floor, Ms. Lalonde.

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I have nothing to add.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right.

We're going to go to Mr. Obhrai, and then give Mr. Wilfert just a very quick.... I want to get to the question here as soon as possible, so we can go to our next guest.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Mr. Chair, I do understand many of the points that have been made about the seriousness of this case and the impact it's had on the individuals here today. There is no denying all of these factors, but I want to correct some misconceptions or things that have been thrown at the government.

First of all, let me tell Madam McDonough that this case has no comparison with Maher Arar's case. This is a murder that took place. In Maher Arar's case, it was a totally different thing, and for you to try to connect these two is totally misleading about what should be the main issue here, which is a murder investigation in another country.

As for Mr. McTeague coming out and saying the government has given lip service to this and that they should fend for themselves, that is absolutely wrong. The Government of Canada's consular services were there when this unfortunate tragedy took place, and we have been in contact all the time and are working with the family to ensure that. To say the Government of Canada was not there is misleading and not putting the record straight.

Now in reference to—

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Mr. Chair, it's my turn. Let me also say—

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll go to the point of order.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Chair, I just want it to be understood that Mr. Obhrai is throwing out comments such as “misleading” about my particular role in this. I would only suggest to Mr. Obhrai, through you, Chair, on the question of determining that my comments were misleading, only to look at the facts that when he was sitting at home having a good time in February, some of us were actually working—

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

That's not a point of order.

Continue, Mr. Obhrai.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

That's absolutely ridiculous.

The second factor, which came out of here, was that the committee would be able to give its advice to the minister and everything. You know what? Nothing stops you from doing that. Nothing stops you from providing that advice. Nothing stops you from talking about it. So go ahead.

What I'm trying to say over here is let's not take these things away and throw things that the other side is throwing. The main issue in this case is the rights of Canadians and the right to see a speedy investigation.

I'm going to repeat the words that the Prime Minister has said, that we will stand up for Canadians' rights, despite the fact of what they're saying here. We stood up for Maher Arar's rights. It was this government that stood up for Maher Arar's rights.

Yes, we are dealing with it. The Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister are talking at the highest levels with the Mexican officials, telling them that we want a thorough investigation into this matter. I do not know where this idea came from that the investigation is done. I'm not aware of that. But we are engaged at the highest level and we will continue being engaged at the highest level to ensure that the rights of Canadians are protected.

Despite the fact that it is very difficult at this time for us to support this motion, given that we see this to be a partisan issue right now, I can assure the family and I can assure everybody here that we will continue working with them. We will ensure that the rights of Canadians are protected. They're more than welcome to continue talking to us, and we'll do that.