Evidence of meeting #9 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nations.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John McNee  Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs
Denis Thompson  Director, Peacekeeping Policy, Department of National Defence
Michel Lavigne  Desk Officer - Haiti, Canadian Expeditionary Forces Command , Department of National Defence

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll call this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, meeting number 9.

Pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111, we are reviewing the order in council appointment of John McNee to the position of Canadian ambassador to the United Nations, referred to the committee on Wednesday, April 26, 2006.

We are pleased to welcome to our committee this afternoon John McNee, ambassador to the United Nations. Ambassador McNee brings a wealth of experience to his appointment. In Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs he has served as director of the personnel division and as director general of the Middle East, North Africa, and Gulf States Bureau. Mr. McNee also served on Prime Minister Trudeau's task force on international peace and security and at the Privy Council Office. Before taking up his current posting as Canada's ambassador to Belgium, with concurrent accreditation to Luxembourg, he had been assistant deputy minister, Africa and Middle East, at the Department of Foreign Affairs in Ottawa since 2001.

This is fairly timely, in that last fall a representative group from Foreign Affairs had the opportunity of visiting the United Nations and Ambassador Rock at the time. Certainly we recognized the job at the United Nations and the reforms that probably are in the works, and how important they are.

Ambassador, we welcome you to the foreign affairs and international development committee. I invite you to make your opening remarks, and we look forward to being able to exchange questions. We await your comments.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

John McNee Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, let me say it is a very great honour to be named to represent Canada at the United Nations in New York. I am deeply appreciative to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs for their confidence and support.

There are many qualities needed for success as ambassador and permanent representative of Canada to the United Nations.

Four qualities are especially important, in my view: experience, knowledge, advocacy, and leadership. I would briefly like to outline for you my own qualifications.

First, experience: a 28-year career as a foreign service officer has given me wide experience in the conduct of Canada's international relations. Abroad, I've been a consul, a trade commissioner, a political officer, and a head of mission twice. I have served in the Middle East, in Tel Aviv and in Damascus; and in Europe, in Madrid and in Brussels. As you noted, Mr. Chair, I've been assistant deputy minister for Africa and Middle East at the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Earlier, I was privileged to serve in the Privy Council Office under Prime Ministers Mulroney, Campbell, and Chrétien. In sum, I think I have the broad experience to equip me well for the wide range of issues that confront Canada at the UN.

A second quality is knowledge. My starting point is knowledge of Canadian values and interests. Half my work experience has been in Ottawa, working closely with ministers, parliamentarians, civil society, and the business community. The other half has been spent serving Canada abroad. This has given me, I think, a good sense of what really matters for Canada internationally and of Canadian's expectations that Canada will contribute to the solution of global problems.

By working with other countries for the common good, Canada advances our own security and prosperity.

In terms of the agenda of the UN, Kofi Annan has argued that the UN is really about three things: peace and security, international development and human rights. I have spent much of my career at the intersection of these fundamental goals. As ADM for Africa and the Middle East and from direct experience on the ground in postings in the Middle East, I have developed extensive knowledge of these two key regions, which dominate much of the UN agenda.

I also understand how to advance Canada's objectives at the UN, for example, in advising ministers on human rights and a plethora of other issues over many years.

A third key quality is the ability to advocate and communicate. Our permanent representative to the UN is the advocate for Canada on a multitude of global challenges. This entails public and quiet diplomacy, public speaking and discreet negotiation. I believe that whether in conveying tough messages to authoritarian regimes on human rights or winning the support of our partners and allies, I have demonstrated the ability to articulate the Canadian position clearly and convincingly.

The ambassador's job at the UN is also about building bridges and persuading other countries to work with Canada and support our goals. My track record is of someone who takes a collaborative approach and works cooperatively with others to advance Canadian objectives.

Finally, leadership. Filling positions of increasing responsibility in the public service has given me an understanding of the challenges and importance of leadership.

The ambassador to the UN must provide advice on opportunities for Canada in the multilateral world, the most effective means to pursue our objectives and the consequences. An incredible range of issues is dealt with at the UN: the challenge is also to give leadership in determining what really matters for Canada.

Our mission in New York is composed of a very strong, committed team. My goal is to work with them to deliver the excellence that has long been the hallmark of Canada at the United Nations.

A message I would like to leave with you today is that the United Nations and the multilateral system matter to Canadians. As a nation reliant on trade for its economic well-being, Canada depends on an open, rules-based, international trading system. The safety and security of Canadians is assured by an effective non-proliferation regime, a program of action to control the availability of small arms and light weapons, measures to deal with terrorism, and peace-building programs aimed at failed and failing states. In our world of extensive travel, Canadians are increasingly exposed to new and fast-spreading forms of disease.

These are all challenges that only the coordinated efforts of the international community can tackle, yet the multilateral system—the United Nations in particular—has been under considerable strain in the last two years. The inability of the Security Council to agree on a course of action in Iraq, the lack of control of the oil-for-food program, and the abuse perpetrated by some UN peacekeepers, all have raised legitimate questions. The comprehensive reform effort launched by Kofi Annan resulted in commitments at the 2005 world summit last September, but they only go part way in meeting the challenges inherent in reforming the UN.

A number of steps have already been agreed to, for example on internal oversight, but a lot of work remains. There was success in getting a peace-building commission launched, which will aim to shore up good governance and democracy in countries threatened by or emerging from conflict. Fifty percent of countries recovering from conflict fall back into violence within five years--East Timor is a sad example--so we have to try to do better.

Nations also agreed to establish a Human Rights Council, to which Canada has just been elected. Requirements for membership in the council have been raised. The agenda and method of work of the council are being defined, and we will be working hard to make the council an effective body that contributes to the implementation of human rights around the world.

A panel recently set up by the Secretary-General, and to which the president of CIDA, Robert Greenhill, has been appointed, will present recommendations in the fall for enhancing coherence in the delivery of development, humanitarian, and environmental programs across the UN system. This will be key in ensuring both the effectiveness of UN efforts in the technical cooperation and emergency assistance areas, as well as in guaranteeing value for taxpayers' dollars.

Management reform--that is, reform of the way in which the organization itself is run--is a priority on which my predecessor has spent considerable time, energy, and demonstrated leadership. I intend to pick up energetically where he leaves off. Good management and effective control and oversight are essential to the credibility of the UN. It is therefore essential that errors be corrected and controls strengthened. Important measures have already been taken to enhance transparency, oversight, and control.

While a reform process has been launched, progress will be slow. A pervasive north-south divide permeates the UN, with industrialized countries concerned first and foremost about the peace and security dimension of the UN mandate and with value for money, and developing countries more focused on the social and economic dimensions and on development. Diverging interests and objectives will thus have to be reconciled, but I will work hard to advance Canada's values and priorities in that discussion.

Let me now turn briefly to two of the most difficult political issues facing Canada and the United Nations. The serious humanitarian crisis in Darfur has moved Canadians and engaged the government. The peace agreement recently concluded under African Union auspices in Abuja gives hope that the conflict can finally be extinguished and the needs of affected populations effectively addressed, but the situation remains extremely difficult. The Darfur peace agreement opens the way to the dispatch of the United Nations mission to take over from the current African Union mission, for which Canada has provided much support.

On Iran, Canada has been working at the IAEA and in other fora to convince Iran to resume its suspension of all uranium enrichment and other proliferation-sensitive activities, to cooperate fully with the IAEA, and to return to the negotiations with the European trio towards a diplomatic solution. We welcomed the offer last week of a package of benefits to Iran as the basis for renewed discussions for a diplomatic solution, and we are very encouraged by the willingness of the United States to enter into direct negotiations with Iran as part of the European Union's process, providing that Iran first agrees to resume the suspension of uranium enrichment. The ball is now in Iran's court. We hope Iran will respond positively to these significant developments.

This brings me back to the premise I started with: the United Nations matters to Canada. The UN in New York, its organizations, and notably the Security Council, provide legal authority and hence moral legitimacy to decisions and actions aimed to address geostrategic challenges.

This is why I am honoured by the government's appointment and will work very hard to justify its confidence.

As I said, I'm very honoured by the government's appointment and will do my very best to work hard to justify it. And I look forward to welcoming all of you to the Canadian mission in New York.

Thank you very much.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Ambassador McNee.

We will go into the first round of questions and we'll begin with the opposition side.

Mr. Martin, five minutes please.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you, Mr. Sorenson.

Ambassador McNee, thank you very much for being here, and congratulations on your appointment. You've been a stalwart in Foreign Affairs for a long time and one of our best ambassadors, so congratulations.

I have a couple of questions, but first I have a short preamble. I personally hope that we'll see Canada push at the UN more effective preventative measures, particularly in conflicts. I hope we'll be able to move along what is taking place in the Ivory Coast. I also hope that while we're consumed rightly by Darfur, situations such as the Congo and northern Uganda are not forgotten about. And I hope that we're also able to advance some innovations in the issue of food security, where the numbers of people, as you know better than any of us, who are affected make all other conflicts pale in comparison.

My question, Ambassador McNee, concerns a couple of things. One is the millennium development goals, and if you have any ideas on how the United Nations can better address that benchmark upon which we all agreed.

And secondly, there are the UN reforms. If you had to list something you are going to be confronted with, as you articulated in your comments, what specific measures do you think we could champion in terms of accountability and management changes that will reduce overlap among UN agencies and, as you said, get better bang for the buck for the Canadian dollar and indeed all donors to the UN agencies?

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Ambassador McNee.

3:45 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

By way of preamble, I should say that I'm between my assignment as ambassador to Belgium and my new job in New York, which I should start on July 5. I'm not there yet, and don't pretend to be the expert.

On the first point Dr. Martin raised, I think we have to be very aware of the so-called CNN effect, which focuses on one crisis where the international media can get in and get access, to the detriment of attention to other areas—the Ivory Coast is a good example—which somehow slide off the headlines. It doesn't mean that they're any less important or compelling. I think the job of a professional foreign service is to bring those other dimensions to the attention of the government.

The Ivory Coast is still in enormous difficulty, in fact in a sort of civil war. There is a United Nations mission there, but it's certainly one that shouldn't be forgotten.

The Congo is an enormous country of huge strategic importance on the continent, where literally millions of people have died in the last 10 to 15 years, and where there is hope, if we can find ways to support the electoral process and the country going ahead.

In northern Uganda, I think my predecessor and the government played an excellent role in bringing this humanitarian problem to the attention of the Security Council and getting them to focus on it—and in being very active diplomatically. Mr. MacKay has directed us to be even more energetic in trying to work out a solution.

So this is a long way of saying I'm very much in agreement with your preamble that we have to find better ways to prevent conflict. The peace-building commission should be a good first step, but it shouldn't be the only one. Canada has to come up with its own ideas as well.

On the UN millennium development goals, this is a big challenge. The world summit last year, which was five years after the adoption of the goals, was designed to focus attention and say to the world community, how are we doing? If we don't step up our efforts, we're not going to make it. Of course, if you don't make those goals—in Africa in particular, nothing's static—it means a sliding away.

I confess I don't think there's an easy answer to that, or I don't have it, but I think it's important. They are a very important benchmark that we need to keep in mind as more than a goal. Regarding CIDA programming, as you know, the CIDA thinking is very much oriented towards those goals and trying to make sure that our ODA effort serves and advances them.

On UN reform, Kofi Annan has presented the detailed reports on internal administration, which, as a kind of layman, I would say make eminent good sense. They are what I would term the modern management principles, which we would apply in Canada. I think we have to keep arguing for the effectiveness of administration and modern methods.

A big challenge at the UN is that its internal rules and regulations, as I understand them, were designed for another era, when the UN was primarily that building in New York and organized and gave support to conferences. In the last 15 years there's been an explosion of UN operational activities in peacekeeping missions and international humanitarian assistance. The nature of the organization has changed; its own internal processes have to change.

The last question Dr. Martin put concerns overlap.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly, please.

3:50 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

I'm sorry.

Regarding overlap, I think the UN panel Robert Greenhill sits on is trying to look at ways to reduce agency duplication—streamline things, so you can get a better bang for the buck.

Sorry, Mr. Chairman.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Proceeding to the next question, Madam Lalonde.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I'm convinced you will be giving me as much time.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We always do.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I'm not sure. Next time, I will bring ma montre.

Congratulations, Mr. McNee. You hold an extremely important position. I have two lines of questioning.

The first one deals with the qualities that you mentioned. The ones that you listed are important, but I would like to add two more. The ability to advise the government and the ability to negotiate. I'm not saying that you don't already have those qualities, but I would like you to tell us what you think. From your vantage point, you can assess Canada's standing in the world, and you can see that the country, because of the recent change in government, can now exercise more influence with certain countries and less with others. You can most certainly influence the government by providing your take on a given issue. In my opinion, the ability to advise the government is extremely important because you are on the ground and you can assess the situation.

As to the ability to negotiate, you are aware that Sudan refused the Darfur proposal to have a peacekeeping force in that country. When that type of thing occurs, what do you recommend to the government? Would the ability to negotiate not be an important asset?

3:50 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the ability to advise the government is something that any ambassador for Canada should be capable of doing. In my opinion, it is essential to detect opportunities for Canada within the United Nations context and advise the government of the possible outcome of any given approach. That is a given.

As to the ability to negotiate, well, that comes with the territory. Canada has a sterling reputation within the United Nations. Why? Because we have invested our energy, our ideas, our money and our people in common pursuits. And that, in turn, earns us a great deal of respect within the United Nations.

The Sudan file is extremely difficult and very complex. I see no immediate solution to this problem. Trying to convince the Sudanese government to cooperate represents an enormous challenge. The approach that has been taken so far, namely, to work closely with our African partners, the African Union, seems to be the right one. But we are not on the ground over there. This is an issue that I will be reviewing with my colleagues at Foreign Affairs. I know that it is both important yet extremely difficult. We can't simply wave a magic wand and hope to solve this problem.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you. We will be in touch with you, because the Darfur and Sudan issue will be on the front burner until some headway can be made.

Neither the Liberal nor the Conservative government has set a goal of 0.7% of Canada's GDP for development aid by 2015. In your opinion, will this be a blot on Canada's reputation and its capacity to influence others?

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

Mr. Chairman, any question relating to our development aid objectives should be put to the government. It is not in my purview to comment on government policy objectives.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

How do you think this will influence other countries?

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

Canada has an excellent reputation when it follows through. When Canada promises to contribute 1,10, or $100 million, it always makes good on its commitments. That is not always the case for other countries. Some countries set goals or make promises and—

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

So, in your opinion, it doesn't matter?

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

No. That is not what I am saying. However, I think we have a very good reputation, one that is based on fact, and because of that our development aid partners respect Canada's contribution. I have to admit, though, that we are not at the top of the OECD list.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

No, that is obvious. We are at the bottom.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madame Lalonde.

We will go to Mr. Van Loan.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to pose a kind of essay-style question.

An international relations student who is a realist might argue today that the United Nations has been a failure. We saw that with the failure to deal with some of the big problems and issues. With Iraq and the former Yugoslavia, the United Nations was largely absent or unable to respond in both cases, and it was left to other multilateral organizations or informal alliances or individual powers. Even today, where you see issues like Iran or the Palestinian process, where the United Nations is involved, it's an add-on, where one might argue that others are carrying the real freight. Other partners in the United Nations are there to provide, perhaps, an air of legitimacy, but they're not really the vehicle that's driving the process.

In view of that, this person might make the proposition that it's best to leave the United Nations to act in areas where there's broad consensus, and for other areas where there is not broad consensus, to look to informal alliances or other alliances or ad hoc groupings or initiatives to get things done. Would you agree with that proposition, or would you disagree, and why?

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations, Department of Foreign Affairs

John McNee

That one could take a while, Mr. Chair, but I'll give it a quick stab.

Mr. Van Loan points out some “failures”. If we take Iraq and Yugoslavia, they're failures on the part of the UN Security Council to agree on a course of action, and that has had serious consequences, I think. If you step back and take a look at the broader picture, since the creation of the United Nations 60 years ago, you've had a huge expansion of the number of states. There are now 191 members, I think, of the UN, so 140 new states have been created, but the number of state-to-state conflicts has gone way down.

In the last 15 years, the University of British Columbia--and I can't remember which department--did a study, not of state-to-state conflicts, but of armed conflicts, including civil wars and other sorts of wars, and the numbers have gone way down. I think it's partly because the United Nations has been more active recently. It has found ways to head off interstate conflicts and has been addressing the failed and failing states. So there have been some dramatic examples, and Iraq is the one that has shaken the whole United Nations framework. I think we have to be honest about that.

That isn't to say that the United Nations isn't still central in fulfilling its mandate given it by the international community--its first mandate, which is on international peace and security. I don't think that precludes.... Even in the United Nations charter, it foresees sometimes acting with, through, or in concert with regional organizations, when they make more sense. I think the case of Sudan is a good one, where the first recourse, the African Union, makes eminent good sense.

I would be a little more inclined to think that the first resort should be the universal body to which Canada subscribes, the United Nations, and if, for whatever reason, that doesn't work, there may be situations that cry out for other sorts of action.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Van Loan.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

That was a lot faster than you said it would be, but I thank you for that.

The role of the UN might, in the first instance, be more controversial, and we talk about Iraq and so on. Once the so-called flashpoint of the conflict is past, the United Nations perhaps could be more active in stepping into places like that. We saw that in Yugoslavia, if I'm correct, but not in Iraq. In fact, in Iraq there was a tentative effort, and then they pulled out. What does that say about the United Nations?