Evidence of meeting #24 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Byers  Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law, University of British Columbia
Colonel  Retired) Pierre Leblanc (President, Canadian Diamond Consultants Inc.
Steven Staples  Chair, Rideau Institute on International Affairs
Steven Shrybman  Lawyer, Sack, Goldblatt and Mitchell
James Fergusson  Director, Centre for Defence and Security Studies, University of Manitoba
Tom Last  President, ImStrat Corporation
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Angela Crandall

5:10 p.m.

President, ImStrat Corporation

Tom Last

To be quite honest, for national security reasons I can't really discuss that, because that is what I consider top secret information. Please, I encourage you to talk to the Minister of National Defence and all his intelligence personnel. I'm sure you have your clearances and I'm sure they'll provide you all the details that you want.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Your answer only confirms how important it is to maintain control over what happens here at home.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Fergusson on Monsieur Lebel's question.

5:10 p.m.

Director, Centre for Defence and Security Studies, University of Manitoba

Dr. James Fergusson

I'm not an expert on detailed capabilities of the United States in the Arctic, but what I do understand is that both the United States and Canada share the same difficulties, share the same problems of investing resources and where to invest those resources, and share the same interests with regard to the Arctic in overwhelming terms.

It seems to me that when you talk about defending Canadian interests, I always find it very interesting and I think it should be important that everyone should remember that Radarsat, until the last year, two years at most, was never considered a national security asset, period. It's an interesting dynamic of why suddenly we think it's a national security asset.

But in terms of American capability, given the nature of our common interests over knowing what's up there, being able to monitor movement of vessels up there, etc., I think there's much more to be benefited by cooperating with the United States, given the costs of operating there by both parties, than trying to point fingers at each other, saying “You're going to threaten me here and I'm going to threaten you there”. In part, this is what's happening with this debate, it seems to me.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Fergusson.

Mr. Masse.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

I'm sorry my colleague had to leave for another appointment, but he did want me to ask this question: If you could lay out some key elements you believe would be important for a space policy for Canada, what should Canada at this point in time focus on in terms of creating more of a structure with our space policy?

Coming from Industry Canada for a number of years and sitting on that committee, we had very little discussion on this subject matter. We'd be interested to see what you think in terms of what the key elements would be.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

That leaves it wide open.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes, and that's the intent. We've had other testimony on Radarsat, but we're interested right now about where we should go further.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

It's a very good question, and I know that our guests have some interest in that.

We'll start with Mr. Fergusson.

5:10 p.m.

Director, Centre for Defence and Security Studies, University of Manitoba

Dr. James Fergusson

It's important to recognize that Canada's national space policy or strategy, if there is one, is in fact made up of not one but many elements, and the real issue of the absence of a national space policy or strategy stems from the absence of a coherent integrated approach to it.

National defence is one specific approach to dealing with military space, and that overwhelmingly is trying to assure access to vital U.S. capabilities, military space capabilities, as well as commercial capabilities. It's important to recognize in this regard that the United States military relies 80% on commercial satellites. That's an important thing that's been lost as well, in this debate.

So you have this element of it, and the centrepiece, of course, for national defence is the first defence satellite being built by MDA, which will operate it as well. I'm not sure what the status of all that is in terms of this issue that's involved--Project Sapphire.

You have CSA's element embedded in industry where the Radarsat model, as far as I understand it, exists. This is really about leveraging technology to create capacity to then develop economic benefits for the nation, usually by accessing foreign markets, of which the United States is the most important.

You have the CSA, which increasingly over the past ten years has begun to focus more and more of its attention away from space exploitation for terrestrial purposes into exploration. If you look at its budgetary share and where that's going, we're unique in this country in terms of our space agency. The proportion that we spend on exploration is much higher than that of any other nation relative to the proportion for terrestrial exploitation, which has been the focus, particularly for the Indians and the Europeans. That's taking it in one direction in terms of technology. So the CSA and Industry Canada aren't necessarily on the same page.

Then, of course, there's the Department of Foreign Affairs, which is driving a multilateral strategy about a space security regime. So when one talks about a national policy and about space as a strategic asset, a strategic domain to defend Canadian interests, to protect the Canadian economy, to protect its critical infrastructure, to defend its sovereignty, etc., one needs to develop a coherent approach that pieces all this together against the realities of what Canada can reasonably expect to invest over the next 10 to 20 years in space and where those developments are.

This is an area where the Radarsat or remote sensing and the ability to exploit that one area of critical capability with a degree of comparative advantage right now and use that to develop a coherent strategy come into play. Not only can this contribute to Canadian national security, but it can leverage, of course, benefits from our allies and make a real contribution to our allies on the international security stage.

In this regard, I just want to add an important side point. The Radarsat-2 for the United States was never about Arctic sovereignty. It was about the resolution of Radarsat-2 and its impact elsewhere in the world if other people could get access to it. They were looking for assurances that no one else could get access to that type of precise high-resolution technology.

Going back to what a national policy or a national strategy should look like, it has to be woven together out of the institutional interests of separate organizations. Right now, the lead in that is industry via CSA, but with CSA not really going in the industry direction, notwithstanding what will come out of the strategic review that's under way right now with the Canadian Space Agency. Defence and foreign affairs and all the other elements are going to have to be woven together with this as part of a coherent strategy.

Up until now we've had a strategy and policy running at best on parallel tracks, and at times on contradictory tracks.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Last, do you have any comments?

5:15 p.m.

President, ImStrat Corporation

Tom Last

Yes, I have a few comments.

First of all, some people questioned the value of Radarsat-2, and I'll be the first to admit that I was guilty of that at the beginning stages. However, it has to be understood that Radarsat-2 was considered as one component of the buy-in to the future imagery architecture system in the United States, in support of or in relation to access to other data sources from the United States. I don't consider Radarsat-2 an intelligence collector. It is a surveillance system, specifically broad area surveillance, which has great value for Canada due to the size of our country.

In terms of a policy, what are we talking about? Are we talking about a space policy? As our friend here mentioned, there are two things we're talking about: remote sensing and space exploration--looking down and looking out. Do we need a policy? Yes, big time. We need a huge turnaround and a huge policy, and we need to identify the lead elements. Is the Canadian Space Agency in St. Hubert in a prime position for a lot of this? Absolutely. That's their job. But they have to be funded, and they have to be given the resources to do it correctly.

Intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance, ISR, is a National Defence responsibility. This has to be integrated within the whole policy. Natural Resources Canada and Canada's Centre for Remote Sensing have to be taken into consideration, right now. The Canada Centre for Remote Sensing is a lead agency for the NMSO--a national standing offer--for commercial satellite imagery. It has been delayed for I don't know how many years because they're always asking industry for more and more input--procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate.

If I'm a company and I provide imagery as part of my business, am I going to wait for them to make a decision, or am I going to look somewhere else? These decisions have to be made, and we have to move forward. We need action on these things.

Again, the Canada Centre for Remote Sensing is another key stakeholder that has been ignored for many years--for way too long--and they have lost people. They have lost professors to the United States and to National Defence, to DRDC. They're all over the place. There is no cohesiveness at all.

So a policy has to be integrated, and all the stakeholders have to be in. But there has to be a fixed timeline. Let's not sit around committee for the next ten years. Let's do this within a timeline--six months. Make a decision and move on. That's what people want to see in industry, and that's what Canadians expect.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There's no doubt that it's a dog's breakfast right now.

Do you have any recommendations in terms of a particular way to go about focusing on Canadian space?

5:20 p.m.

President, ImStrat Corporation

Tom Last

A think tank. A think tank has to be implemented within this whole organization, to get all the key people--professors, universities, experts within remote sensing, intelligence, experts in geological survey--because they are their users. Those are the people who are going to be using all this data and this information. They're all stakeholders. One is not better than the other; they are all equal with regard to this. They are the ones who need to lead this. They have to provide that information to the Canada Space Agency.

In my opinion, the Canada Space Agency is the operator. They're the experts in how to operate the satellite systems, provide us that data and so on and so forth. We're the experts on the policy. It's the policy that has to lead the people. At the end of the day, it's the people who are going to make those decisions for you.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Would you agree with that, Mr. Ferguson?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Centre for Defence and Security Studies, University of Manitoba

Dr. James Fergusson

I would tend to agree. I'm not sure if I would agree that it would be as widely representative as Mr. Last suggests.

But certainly if we look at the past roughly 20 years, since Canada took an active interest in space again, from the last major focus, which was 1967, and the Chapman report--the joint parliamentary committee report of 1986, if my memory serves me correctly--which led to the establishment of CSA, it is clear that the interdepartmental approach to moving this forward has failed miserably. I think you really need to take it to an independent commission or something, with a timeline and core stakeholders, who can talk not just about the current structure but the need to restructure and really take a look at the question of the integrated space policy in this country as a strategic asset. I think that's very important.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We appreciate you being here today. Our time is up, and we have some committee business. We appreciate your input. I would also add, and I neglected to do it in the earlier segment, that if some of the questions today have prompted a further response to enlarge on an answer you already gave, we would encourage you to submit that. They will be put on the record, and I know that our committee would be better off for that.

Thank you again for coming.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We will now move to committee business.

Before we go to Madame Deschamps' motion, a report from the steering committee has been circulated. We met on Monday.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Do we go in camera for the steering committee session?

April 15th, 2008 / 5:20 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mrs. Angela Crandall

We don't normally, because it goes into the minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You don't have to. The steering committee meets in camera. It brings forward its report. For committee business you don't go in camera unless you're dealing with something.

Do we have a motion to adopt the steering committee report?

Madame Deschamps moves it, and it is seconded by Mr. Khan.

(Motion agreed to)

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madame Deschamps, you brought forward a motion. Thank you for waiting until the end of the meeting. We've heard all the testimony from today. From that you've brought forward a motion in regard to—

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Would it be possible to go in camera for this discussion?

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You can always make a motion to go in camera, but it's not something we normally do. We can move in camera, but it takes a vote.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

I'd like to put it to a motion.