Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2009

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Chair, to be clear, I opened my comments by stating that. There was no surprise for me when the letter came back the way it did. There was lack of clarity on UN Resolution 1267, and I was very uncertain about it. I simply wanted to establish whether the minister can provide that document, and, yes, the minister can. There are two ways. One is to apply for an exemption. It takes about five days. We heard from Mr. Barrett and some people through the media, but also directly, that there is a way to apply for an exemption. The government has already applied for an exemption, and that's to provide Mr. Abdelrazik with $100 a month per diem. They've already done it. You can apply for an exemption to allow someone to apply, but you don't even have to do that. There are two methods: provide the document and let him fly, or apply for an exemption. So it can be done either way.

When you ask whether others have, yes. We don't have exact numbers, but we know of at least 18 other people who have travelled.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

From which countries did they travel?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Some of them, I think, were in the background material I had. I can provide that. But I don't think it influences whether we should request it, and that's getting back to my point. All I want to do is request, formally, that the minister provide the document. I was just giving you background information, because you asked.

Finally, to note, it's very rare--and Mr. Walsh is right, because one member state can just say no, it doesn't want to have the person delisted--to have a person's name removed. In fact, the most successful cases have been cases of people who have actually died. Then they have finally taken the name off. Note that Nelson Mandela didn't get off the list any time soon. Mr. Arar is still on the no-fly list to the United States. So I think that's important to note. Do whatever you want with it, but it's information.

I think requesting, not demanding--I never said demand--is where I'm coming from.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll have Mr. Abbott and then Ms. Lalonde.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

As we've discussed, the report speaks for itself. I think the legal opinion is clearly stated, and we thank Mr. Walsh for that. I think it's been helpful and instructive. No matter how many years I'm here, it seems to me that we keep on learning things.

I believe the minister has been very clear on his position towards Mr. Abdelrazik, and as I stated, we're going to be supporting the minister in voting against this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ms. Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I would like you to wait and hear me speak first.

Earlier, Mr. Walsh talked about the substantive nature, or lack thereof, of the reason why Mr. Abdelrazik is on the list. He said, I heard it loud and clear, and it will be in his testimony—that it is not necessarily for a substantive reason: a party, or a country can state that it does not want him to be removed.

That means that, even though we know that it is quite likely that there will be no American base to keep him there, the government does not want him to return to testify. It appears to me that something is not right.

I was reflecting upon this earlier. I talked about Maher Arar, but I also saw William Sampson. Mr. Sampson is furious against Canada: he was in prison in Saudi Arabia, and he ultimately had to turn to Great Britain to get him out of there. He was freed and was not charged.

I think all of this must be considered as a whole and we must give him the benefit of the doubt. If only there were a clue, some kind of evidence, but there is not any! Apparently, it is impossible to get one's name removed from the list, unless one is dead, and even that is not certain. So I think we can still try and convince Mr. Cannon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lalonde.

Anyone else on this?

Mr. Pearson.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Finally, I'm not trying to be difficult, Mr. Chair, but I--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

No, I don't find you to be difficult at all, Mr. Pearson.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

If it were personal, if it were my son or your daughter in this situation, we would be climbing the walls because we couldn't get the information we required. So I'm admitting to you openly that I want to get Mr. Abdelrazik here. That's true. That's part of the reason I'm supporting this. I have no doubt about that. If it was my son, I'd do exactly the same thing. I don't like the circumstances he's in. That's what I'm talking about.

All that Mr. Dewar is requesting is that you ask the minister to do it. We all know what the answer will be. But if I were a father, I would never be content if I didn't try to the nth degree to do it--to us on this side anyway, but hopefully to some on the other side. This is a situation none of us would be in. If Jim Abbott were there, I would be fighting tooth and nail to get Jim Abbott back here. And that's the truth.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Do we want to take a vote on that?

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

And you know that's true.

Now, we might have opinions about Mr. Abdelrazik. Maybe some of you have already arrived at those. But this is a Canadian citizen.

All Mr. Dewar is asking is for you to write that letter. That's all. We know what the answer will be. Let's be honest, we all know what the answer is going to be. For our sake, we have to try everything that's in our power to do so. Unfortunately, we're in your hands, whether you will do that or not. But I would certainly hope you would at least let it come to a vote, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Just one last point. In part of the note that I read into the record, it does state--and this is from the government--that on July 31, 2006, Mr. Abdelrazik was listed by the UN's 1267 committee at the request of the U.S. People were asking how he ended up there. That's how he ended up there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. We will call the question. Mr. Dewar has moved that the chair write to the Minister of Foreign Affairs requesting him to provide travel documents to Mr. Abdelrazik.... We'll get the blues and get the correct one.

(Motion agreed to)

The clock is at 5:25.

First of all, thank you very much, Mr. Walsh, for your research and the work you've done in the writing of the letter and for being here today. When we requested that you come, we weren't exactly certain what your letter would contain. So we were glad you were able to come and explain it, and if anyone had further questions, to do that. So thank you very much.

For those who are on the steering committee, we are going to have a steering committee meeting tomorrow at 9 o'clock. One of the reasons for that is there are budgets that should be looked at before the summer break, so that we can have witnesses appear before both our committee and the subcommittee on human rights. There will be a few other agenda items to put down as well before our break for the summer.

Thank you very much.

Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Was there not the issue of electing a vice-chair on the agenda?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Friends, sit down, please. We're going to just move quickly into committee business for one moment here.

With the resignation of Monsieur Crête, we are now missing one vice-chair of this committee, so we would like to fill that position.

Does someone have a nomination for a replacement for Monsieur Crête?

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have the pleasure of nominating Ms. Lalonde.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Deschamps nominates Madame Lalonde, who has served in this capacity in the past.

Are there any other nominations?

(Motion agreed to)

It's unanimous. We congratulate Madame Lalonde for that great title of vice-chair of the foreign affairs and international development committee.

We're adjourned.