Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two what may seem unrelated questions, but I think they wrap into each other.

First of all, how porous are the other borders around Sudan? Nine countries are touched on.

Second, when I was in Benin just recently, about a month ago, we had a conversation with their elections process agency. I asked them what form of identification they used for their election process. They really don't have one. Anybody who contributes a list of names, they go on the election list.

My question was, “How do you know whether people have voted in one jurisdiction or another; do you keep a record?” Well, they don't really know. They don't have that sophisticated a system yet, nor do they register births, so they don't have either a national identity card or a birth registration card, because they're not sure if babies are going to live to their fifth year. We're working hard to combat that.

When I was also in Zambia last year, they told us that Elections Canada was working with their election process to build capacity in the country and to ensure that fair and open and transparent elections took place. Are we providing that same kind of support in Sudan? Is that something we're moving towards? I know that you said here that the preparations for the south Sudan referendum are far behind schedule. Is that an area where Canada can really help and really help build capacity?

[Jillian Stirk]

Thank you, Chairman, and thanks to the member for, I think, some important questions.

First of all, I'll touch on the border, then I think my colleague would like to add to that.

These borders are porous, both between north and south Sudan and with the neighbours as well. This is a reality in much of Africa, I would say. In some cases, the notion of citizenship is also much looser than we might think of here in Canada.

I think I pointed out that with respect to the referendum in Abyei, this issue of registration for voting and who is entitled to vote and citizenship has been quite an issue, because many of these people are nomadic. So the question of residency is an issue as well.

Canada has been involved in supporting preparations for the referendum. The intention is that we would participate in an EU-led monitoring mission that would oversee the referendum.

Perhaps my colleagues would like to add just a little bit more information.

[Donald Bobiash]

I just wanted to give a little update on the border situation.

As the ADM pointed out, the borders of Sudan are very porous, and this is a major issue going forward. However, there are some positive developments in the case of Chad, which I think has one of the longest borders with Sudan. About six months ago, there was a rapprochement between the governments of Chad and Sudan for the first time in probably many decades. This peace agreement I think has helped stabilize the flow of refugees across that border.

I just came back from Eritrea about 10 days ago. This is quite interesting: there are now refugees flowing from Eritrea into Sudan at the pace of a few hundred a day. So conditions must be pretty bad if people are moving to Sudan as a place of refuge. This will be something interesting to watch over the next few months.

There are very interesting developments in the Central African Republic. The LRA, the Lord's Resistance Army, which actually was started in Uganda, has spilled over to Sudan and to the Central African Republic. That's an example of how these guerrilla movements spill over from one country to another.

But the short answer is that, yes, porous borders remain a problem and a concern.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move back. Mr. Dewar is back for seven minutes. I think there are still a couple of questions that other people want to ask as well.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your accommodation.

Thank you to our guests today.

I just had a couple of questions around the monitoring of the referendum. I want to be clear here. The Carter Center, I am aware, in the EU is doing the monitoring. So essentially, we're going to provide funding for that as well as personnel, is that correct? Maybe you could help us. How many people are we looking at sending and about how much money are we going to be investing?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

For the Carter Center, it will be $2 million in cash. I don't know how many Canadians will be part of that exercise. There are a few who've gone already as long-term monitors who are going to be monitoring the registration as well as the actual...but as to what it will be, I don't know exactly.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, you're in the planning of that, I imagine.

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

In case of the EU, it will probably be around six .

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Six?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

Six in the EU mission. And the reason we're teaming up with the Carter Center as well is that we felt that we wanted to have a bigger presence than was allowable simply through the EU mission. We've partnered with the Carter Center for that reason.

[Jillian Stirk]

And if I may add, Mr. Chairman, in addition, we have made a significant contribution to the UNDP basket fund of approximately $7.1 million in preparation for the referendum.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Which is a good segue, through you, Mr. Chair, to how much we're looking at investing in total for the pre-referendum period and during the referendum.

[Jillian Stirk]

Well, if I may, Mr. Chairman, I think we've indicated the amounts that we've contributed specifically to activities around the referendum. Of course, there is a whole range of support that we're providing that I think contributes to stability around the referendum, whether it's support for policing or indeed some of the support for issues around citizenship or constitutional issues.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

So it's not one envelope, in other words.

[Jillian Stirk]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Fair enough.

[Jillian Stirk]

It's very difficult to kind of put a figure on it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's a fair point.

I think most people would agree that the scenario of having separation is the most likely one. I'm hoping that what my colleague Mr. Pearson heard is correct, that the north will allow it to go ahead.

That said, I have some concerns that this might not happen. And I guess you hope for the best and plan for the worst. So in that, I'm wondering if we've looked at scenarios like that--in other words, that the north either contests or interrupts or disrupts the referendum. I'm wondering what we're doing about that. That's the first question, then, on a contingency plan, if you will.

Secondly, how much are we looking to invest in post-referendum independent south Sudan? Or have we gotten to that point yet?

[Jillian Stirk]

First of all, our objective is to impress on the south Sudan government the need to proceed with the referendum. As I think I mentioned before, I think it's quite important that the international community speak with one voice on that score--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I agree.

[Jillian Stirk]

--and that we continue to press them to meet their obligations in that respect.

That said, we recognize that there are challenges. While I understand that it's important to recognize what is, in fact, happening on the ground, I think that perhaps for me to speculate about delay of a referendum is not necessarily helpful in terms of keeping our focus on the objective.

Certainly, I think any signals that the Sudanese might get that this is somehow one of the options out there can only contribute to an increase in the tension on the ground.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Maybe I can just say that I'm sure it's something that is being looked at and considered as opposed to something that is...well, being planned for.

[Jillian Stirk]

I think we always try to look at all the options and consider what the best response might be.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

With reference to Abyei, there is some concern around what I'm going to call a “proxy” inducement of the Misseriya peoples into Abyei that is conflating the real number of citizens in Abyei, which will, of course, benefit the north. I guess this is the hot spot right now. Do we have any recent information on what's happening there in terms of migration into Abyei, particularly of this nomadic tribe, and is there anything new you can tell us about that?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

I'll answer this question in two parts. One is on the process of negotiation between north and south over Abyei. This enclave has been subject to an international law case in the Hague that in effect awarded, for the interim period, most of Abyei to the south, but the ultimate status of it will be determined in the referendum.

Unlike the southern Sudan referendum, for which preparations are under way, even if behind schedule, preparations have not begun for the Abyei referendum. It's because of this issue of north and south not being in agreement on voter eligibility. Negotiations have taken place in several rounds, one near New York City two weeks ago, and then in Addis Ababa about a week ago. Another meeting is supposed to take place in Addis Ababa. Up until now they have not been successful, so there's a deadlock, which means there's a stalemate. Meanwhile, tensions are mounting. There was a serious shooting incident a couple of days ago.

The status of the Misseriya, this nomadic tribe, is perhaps the biggest issue at play. The settled population are southern-identified. They're the Dinka. The Misseriya, which have always migrated in and out of Abyei, are northern-identified and Arab-speaking. The question is, how many of them can be considered residents of Abyei for voting purposes? They simply haven't come to a conclusion on this, and it becomes extremely sensitive and perhaps inflammatory.