Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 16th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a question, and I think Mr. Abbott has something as well.

Mr. Rourke, we had testimony on October 28 from Steve Saunders. He was here with a former parliamentarian. We were talking about Mongolia and the work that was done in Mongolia, and they got quite excited when I asked them about economic benefit, about what's in it for us. It's great to do these things, and I think we all have a heart and we all want to change the world, but ultimately there has to be something in it for us.

It was quite apparent that the results in Mongolia were good for Canada, not only to establish good practices that will help that country, but good for us in terms of business.

You mentioned Cuba. I'm curious. What are we doing in Cuba? Are we making any inroads there? Are we realizing any economic benefits in Cuba?

[Phil Rourke]

In both countries--and in a lot of countries--we have Canadian companies that have investments in those countries. They have to abide by the laws of those countries, but the Canadian government gets implicated in them in different kinds of ways. The consulate in Mongolia, for example, spends a lot of time--and I'm sure it was set up there to help--on the investments and the engagement of Canadians there.

I think there's a mutual interest in these kinds of things, because the Canadian embassies and high commissions are promoting investment both ways. These kinds of projects help to manage economic relations between both countries, so whether it's Mongolia or Cuba or other places, there's a mutual interest that then takes hold.

Then, when you bring in some expertise from different government departments, they have an interest because they want to understand the country and how it all works. They want to understand when Ivanhoe or some other company in Mongolia asks them questions: well, okay, how does it all work, where can we help, and where is it just a commercial transaction where we have to step back a little bit?

In my experience, these kinds of commercial policy or trade policy projects help at the macro level and then at the technical level, whether it's on customs, food inspection, or different kinds of things.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I just have a quick follow-up to that. I'm still wanting to hear a little more about Cuba. I'm a firm believer in our western hemisphere initiative: that we actually devote more and more of our energies toward South America. I think most of us can see that Cuba has to change at some point. Are you getting any indication that they're wanting to make that change? Are we going to be in the forefront of that so we can take advantage of that action into a free market system, for instance, in Cuba?

[Phil Rourke]

Sure. On the economic side, Americans actually export somewhere between $600 million to $800 million worth of agricultural products to Cuba every year. The economic interest of Canada is that a lot of those agricultural products have displaced Canadian exports to Cuba. So if we can, through talking about standards, customs, food inspection and different kinds of things, help them to understand the Canadian market, maybe that will help with the engagement of the Canadian producers who want to export to Cuba.

In terms of market reforms in Cuba, it's clear that there are all kinds of discussions now about market reforms, and they've been asking about how to organize these things. I think there's a lot of help that can be made in terms of understanding, as I said before, the different models of how to organize their trade ministry, their industry ministry, and their export and investment ministries. We've made some contributions there, and if there's other interest, we'd be pleased to help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Do you have a quick question, Mr. Lunney? What I want to do to wrap it up is to come back and see if there are any additional questions here, and then wrap it up with you, Jim. Do you have a quick question?.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I just wanted to follow up with CESO. I see from this brochure you provided that you were founded in 1967. That was our centennial year. You have had 46,000 assignments in 120 countries. If I read your remarks right, you have 3,000 volunteers. I've known a couple of them--an architect and a city planner. We are rich in human resources in Canada. We're fortunate to have a lot of retired people with means.

I wonder whether your volunteer base is increasing year by year. Are you static? Are you dwindling? What's happening with the vision? Are Canadians engaging? If so, how many from your organization are equipped to engage in public service type training?

[Gale Lee]

The first point is that our resource pool, or roster, as we call it, is slowly increasing. Naturally, there is some level of attrition. We keep increasing, but with the attrition, there's a more gradual increase in the numbers. We're careful of taking too many people onto our roster and then not having projects for them to go on, given the dwindling resources. In terms of governance, the percentage of government experience we have is about 25% of that roster, so it's 25% of 3,000.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'm going to go to Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lee, I would like to know if there is any coordination between organizations in Haiti so that duplication is reduced or if everyone actually works in isolation.

[Gale Lee]

There are so many development organizations working in Haiti. So that's a good question.

I know that in most countries there is some level of donor coordination. All the donors from all countries have periodic meetings to exchange information about work they are doing so they can try not to duplicate.

In terms of the Canadian organizations, again, I know that the Canadian embassy in Haiti keeps track of all the assistance that goes in from Canada, and they try to avoid duplication. This is why, as I mentioned before, in many cases they're encouraging the organizations to work together and to form consortiums so that they complement--not duplicate--each other.

I know that donor coordination is difficult in most cases in any case, especially with different countries, but at least from a Canadian perspective there's a CIDA officer in the Canadian embassy in Port-au-Prince who keeps track of all the Canadian assistance that goes in. Obviously he tries to ensure that there's no duplication in Haiti.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In answer to one question, you said that you were looking for other sources of funding in order to diversify. There is assistance that Canada can provide bilaterally, namely by providing a grant to a Canadian organization on the ground. But the organization can also ask for funding from any international fund.

Is there any coordination in things like that? Are there any international criteria for avoiding duplication? Here, you are kind of at the mercy of the strategies chosen by the government. Among other choices, they determine the countries to which they give priority. That limits you a little in terms of funding.

Does your experience allow you to determine whether a given country has needs, even if those needs are not given priority by the government? Do you have a framework, a way of measuring, a program, a tool that you can tell us about? Go ahead.

[Gale Lee]

In international development, that is the age-old problem or question: the whole idea of all the different countries and agencies working in one country and duplicating each other and competing for aid projects. At the global level, there is the development association, the DAC, through the OECD in Paris, that tries to do this kind of global development cooperation and do all the coordination. Again, it's difficult to control.

So at our level in terms of CESO, we are guided by the countries, because if each country is required to have a poverty reduction strategy and various strategies towards development--and they're required to have that by the international donor agencies--that should be their road map for development. We try to analyze within their road map where our strengths would fit.

Then, in finding the partners we would like to work with, we do an institutional analysis, which is why I mentioned that we have criteria for partners. In that institutional analysis, we would ask that partner how many other agencies they are doing projects with. We would like to see and know what kinds of projects they are doing, so that when we go and work with them we fill a gap, and we don't duplicate.

At our level, we try to do our own control, because at the wider international level, or even the national level, it's difficult. So in selecting partners, we do an institutional analysis, and we do a profile where we have information of all the donor projects that are ongoing within that partner. Then we try to see if we're needed and if we fit--if there's a gap. If there's not and we think we will just be duplicating, we don't go with that partner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to wrap up with Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I have one quick question for the ambassador, but for my colleagues, hopefully we'll have time to decide whether this is agreeable as instructions to get our report together.

Ambassador, when Ms. Lee was speaking about the cooperation with other nations, she was talking about an idea of there being some support for the volunteers—in this case from Canada—who would be supported for their on-the-ground costs as much as possible, say when they were in Ulan Bator. From your perspective as a representative of Mongolia, does that sound like something that would be workable if a model like this were recommended by this committee?

[Tundevdorj Zalaa-Uul]

As you all know, in Mongolia right now what is taking place is what we call in modern language “a mining boom”. In that sense, compared to the recent two to three years, our economy is much better.

As of today, I cannot exactly say that our government can support certain officials if they are assigned to work in Ulan Bator. But if certain people, skilled people with expertise of very crucial importance, are appointed, I believe the government can work towards providing for them during their stay in Mongolia. Of course, it cannot be many people, but we certainly could....

Canada is the second largest investor in Mongolia overall. There are a lot of Canadian companies that operate inside Mongolia, and they also cooperate with Mongolian organizations and companies. Personally, in that sense, I believe we can find a way of finding sponsors to sponsor those people who are completing their assignments.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

I thank my colleagues for taking up the suggestion about doing these hearings. It has taken one extra meeting. I'm thinking that if this outline--a very crude, very rough outline that I've given you in French and English--is acceptable, it would be instructions for our researchers to begin a report. The alternative, which is perfectly viable, would be to take more committee time to discuss this outline.

I'm asking if there's agreement that this could form some direction for the researchers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to dismiss the witnesses.

You don't have to hear our stuff. Thank you very much, Mr. Rourke, Ms. Lee, and Ambassador, for being here today.

Why don't we say goodbye to our witnesses? Then we'll come right back here. We have five minutes or so before we go ahead.

Thank you very much. We really appreciate it.

[Proceedings continue in camera]