Evidence of meeting #47 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was haiti.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susan Johnson  Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross
Richard Clair  Country Director, Haiti, Canadian Red Cross
Pam Aung Thin  National Director, Public Affairs and Government Relations, Canadian Red Cross

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I will try to be brief, since I want to leave a bit of time for Mr. Doiron.

From the outside, we see a lot of people with good intentions, people who banded together, people who took up small collections. The continued difficulty in removing the rubble that is still there was mentioned. Is it a lack of manpower or of specialized machinery?

I know that a team trained about thirty Haitians living in Montreal so that they could operate this type of machinery. But they are still held up here because they couldn't find the right channels to bring them to Haiti to help remove the rubble.

4:55 p.m.

Country Director, Haiti, Canadian Red Cross

Richard Clair

As for removing the rubble, one of the biggest problems has to do with knowing who the owner of the place is. Who is responsible for removing the rubble? Is it the state, or is it the individual? This issue has still not been completely resolved, and we are waiting for an answer from the government. We can't simply go to a property and start removing rubble. So determining who is responsible for this is a big issue.

4:55 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

And what to do with this rubble, as well.

4:55 p.m.

Country Director, Haiti, Canadian Red Cross

Richard Clair

That is another kettle of fish.

It is a matter of cost, absolutely. Who is responsible for paying for that? So these people are probably held up here because of a lack of resources. It costs a lot. I'll tell you right now that it isn't the manpower that is lacking in Haiti. We can train people fairly quickly to do fairly specialized work.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Jean Dorion Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

There are fundamental issues. You just said that it might not be your role to handle them. I think it would be terrible to have an exercise like this one today without mentioning them, at least briefly. I am talking about issues that are at the very root of Haiti's extreme poverty.

One of the big problems is deforestation. When we fly over the neighbouring countries, we see that they are green. Then, when we get to Haiti, we see that the island is bare. All the forests have been burned down because the citizens use wood to cook, among other things. There, we were told that, as long as wood is cheaper than other combustibles, like propane gas, this was going to continue. As soon as trees are planted, they are immediately cut down and burned by the citizens. That means that, when it rains, all the soil goes into the sea, which ruins the possibilities for agricultural development.

The other big problem is the free market. Per hectare, the yield of Haitian land is very low. Take rice for example. A lot less rice is produced per hectare than on American farms. Also American rice is subsidized, so that Haitians eat only American rice, when they can buy it, of course.

With that in mind, don't you sometimes have the impression that, in Haiti, you are only putting band-aids, that are no doubt necessary, on the deep and pus-filled wounds that cannot be cleaned and will always continue to fester?

5 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

Yes, let's be honest: sometimes it can be discouraging. But the Red Cross is used to very difficult situations. This is what the Red Cross' work is all about.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Jean Dorion Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

I understand your point of view, and I respect it. Of course, I respect what you are doing, as I said at the beginning. That said, I really wanted to highlight these problems because they are perhaps the true problems Haiti is having, and they are not discussed much.

5 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

No, I understand very well. What I want to say is that, as a humanitarian organization, we are doing what we can. We are fulfilling the Red Cross' mandate. We are trying to do this work as efficiently as possible in a setting that we cannot control. We are doing what we can in a very difficult context. We would really like it if other players could get together to resolve the deeper problems. But that isn't the Red Cross' job.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Jean Dorion Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

I understand that. Thank you very much.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

Mr. Goldring.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing here today.

In your brochure it indicates that one million people have been left homeless. Of course, with a family of five that would mean the need for some 200,000 homes. How many homes have been built to date by all organizations, and how many remain to be built?

5 p.m.

Country Director, Haiti, Canadian Red Cross

Richard Clair

I can speak for the Red Cross. There are 5,000 out of 30,000 to be built for the Red Cross movement. The problem is to estimate the kinds of shelters. Some shelters that have been built are not very sturdy, so it's hard to know what the real count is. Some are permanent homes, and some are essentially lean-tos that won't resist the first winds.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

So you have a need for 150,000 or 170,000 homes.

5 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

The humanitarian system estimated there was a need for 135,000 shelters for families.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

I'm going by your sheet here, where it says a million people were left homeless, so you divide that by five. So how many are still left to be built? I'm speaking about sturdy shelters, not just plastic on wood frames.

5 p.m.

Country Director, Haiti, Canadian Red Cross

Richard Clair

There are 800,000 people now left in camps in Port-au-Prince. The new approach is to go back to their communities to see if their homes can be repaired, and move people out of those camps into their homes in their neighbourhoods. I think the shelter approach is more practical in less urban areas. They're finding in Port-au-Prince that they'll have to go back to do more repairs, rather than new shelters.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

So at this rate it could take anywhere up to five years before these people are housed in anything.

5 p.m.

Country Director, Haiti, Canadian Red Cross

Richard Clair

Absolutely.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

I want to return to the question of governance—you characterized it as a challenge—because in my visit in 2006 I would go so far as to say it was a disaster then, before the earthquake, so little had been done. At that time there was a serious problem with the governance too, and it would certainly sound as though that continues to this day.

Even on this land acquisition difficulty, most countries, in Canada too, if they need land for emergency circumstances or conditions they will confiscate it or appropriate it or annex it or whatever. It certainly sounds as though this is the biggest problem in finding some vehicle, and I really think that by onesie-twosie, getting one piece of property freed or registered, that's going to take forever to go through for the amount of property you need. And quite frankly, that just might complicate the system even more. But if a government were able to appropriate 1,000 acres of land and get to the work of building something on it, that would certainly sound as though that's the better way to go. And then the question goes back to—it certainly is indicated here—whether the governance is at such a low level that the government cannot do that. Is that what it is?

The United Nations intervenes in other circumstances. Is there a role for a government intervention to be able to move this issue forward?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

That's certainly a discussion the Canadian government could be taking up and I'm sure has been taking up with the Haitian government. I appreciate completely where your thinking is coming from, but I would caution thinking that the simple solution is to find a new space and move people to a new space, because the people are very determined to live where they have been living because it's where their informal economic activity is--

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

You could still legislate something to take that space to build on.

5:05 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

--it's where their schools are, it's where their families are.

We have a lot of experiences in the international response community of those kinds of resettlements that have themselves been very unhappy experiences. That's why we in the Red Cross have been sympathetic to people's demand to rebuild where they were living as best and where we can, because in terms of the longer-term sustainability, the economic environment they're in, their own livelihoods and so on, and their own well-being as a family, they will be in a better situation if we're able to do that.

That doesn't respond to the millions of people. We made a commitment as an international Red Cross to respond to the needs of 30,000 families, and that's the commitment we're working very hard to deliver, but it doesn't respond to the 130,000 or 150,000 families.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

That's right, and this is where I have great difficulty thinking that five years from now we could still be having people in camps under tarpaulins before they even get a permanent house. And I wouldn't necessarily call this a permanent house. I would call this a transitional house.

5:05 p.m.

Director General, International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

Susan Johnson

It is a slum. We're not calling it a permanent house either. We're not building permanent houses in Haiti.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

But five years to get into this? Wow.