Foreign Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2010

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Nobody has refused to come.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yesterday it was said that a witness who said he was going to come to this committee was in fact not going to come.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

With all due respect, Mr. Dewar seems to think he's Perry Mason and he has the power to unilaterally subpoena people. I take exception to that.

I also think he's impugning people's reputations. There are rules for Treasury Board guidelines on contracts and on what work the committee or an organization like Rights and Democracy is allowed to do. I think we may want to have a look at what the guidelines were and what amounts were paid. It's wrong to impugn these people by saying they've somehow violated the guidelines, when he has no more knowledge about it than any of the rest of us do.

I also think it would be wise to remember that the organization is in transition and a new president will be coming in very shortly. The people who are acting as chair and the board have a responsibility to try to put things in order, as they will be leaving, or at least the acting president will be leaving, in order to turn it over to a new president. They have their own business to do. When our committee has a firm date on which we can ask them to come, I'm sure they'll be very willing to comply.

I noticed that the acting president was not on the Liberal list. I think we probably need to hear from Mr. Gauthier, who is the acting president right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Just for the record, Gauthier and Braun have agreed to be here on April 1, so they're committed.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

That's great. Thank you. I'm glad there's some agreement on that.

My final point is that I think it should be clarified whether in fact there is legal action against the organization by the employees who were dismissed. If there is court action involved already, I'm not sure how that affects the committee's rights or responsibilities, or our ability to hear from witnesses that are in fact engaged in a lawsuit. I just think that should be clarified. Maybe others would care to comment on that.

Otherwise, it sounds like we're coming close to agreeing to a slate. I think we're bumping some important issues off the table that we do need to get on with, so I hope we can resolve this issue as quickly as possible so that we can go on to other very important matters that are also before this committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Goldring, Mr. Abbott, and Madam Lalonde.

Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to say a few words on what my colleague was just talking about, the other important issues. Rights and Democracy should certainly have a thorough airing itself too, but I'm looking at the draft schedule here, and I'm seeing five instances of “Bill C-300 or...”. Those “ors” can really mean no Bill C-300, if you want to interpret it that way.

I want to underscore the importance of reviewing Bill C-300 and having an airing and consultation on it, because I believe one matter was overlooked in the previous hearings. I want to bring out this one short comment here from one company. It underscores the importance of having discussions not only with the mining industry, but also with the other ancillary industries that are contributing to the economy. This company has one paragraph that says:

Canun International is a Canadian-owned Canadian-based company. We are not a mining company per se however the equipment we supply is made in Canada and is sold to the mining companies. There is no doubt that should this bill proceed in its present form it will be used to attack the Canadian mining industry. This will result in the corporate offices, of those mining companies under attack, leaving Canada. Their leaving will, in turn, result in the total loss of our business and the loss of the twenty-nine jobs dependent upon that business.

I want to underscore the importance of continuing with the consultation on Bill C-300 and bringing in some of these ancillary companies for their viewpoint on it, too, to see if this isn't a common thought and a common concern, not only of the mining industry corporations themselves, but of many other Canadian industries.

At this time of concern for the economic well-being of our country, I think we have a duty and responsibility to thoroughly discuss that. So rather than looking at the “ors” on Bill C-300, I would think we could take the time to plug in sufficient time for Bill C-300 and to be sure we allow sufficient time for the rest of this session.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Goldring.

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Chair, I wonder if you could give us a little clarity. Mr. Dewar has said that Mr. Braun was confirmed to be here today. Can you confirm that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Originally, Mr. Braun said he could be here, but then his schedule changed, so we asked him for another date. We have him down for April 1. He has never said that he will not come to the committee.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

No, no, I understand that. It's just that I'm reading from The Globe and Mail, where it says “Rights agency chairman skips testimony” and “NDP MP wants to issue subpoena after Rights and Democracy chief backs out of committee appearance for second consecutive week”. Of course, we also know that Mr. Ignatieff has chosen to wade in on this as well.

Quite frankly--I'll say it to Mr. Dewar's face--I think this is really unacceptable and unfair to be imputing motive to Mr. Braun, to be casting aspersions as you have. I don't think it serves any purpose whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that I think you owe Mr. Braun an apology, and I would hope that would be forthcoming. These people who are on these committees, whether they happen to be on our side of an issue or another side of an issue, give a tremendous amount, far more than their per diems or expenses would warrant.

I think it's really unfair. I find it really quite amazing that we're having this discussion this minute about establishing a witness list and yet Mr. Dewar decides that he is going to grandstand in the House of Commons with the question that he did yesterday and then make these kinds of extreme, inflammatory, and unhelpful statements.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I have Madame Lalonde, then Mr. Patry, and then Mr. Rae on the list.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to begin my saying how pleased I am—and I hope not relatively speaking—to see that we can finally agree on an agenda and a work program. To be preached to after being forced to go along with prorogation and losing a great deal of time in this committee because of a filibuster, well, that's all a bit much, Mr. Chair.

I'm anxious to get down to business and before we do that, I too would like to say that I was shocked to see Mr. Braun twice postpone his appearance. According to our documents, he was supposed to be here. We even received confirmation of his appearance. He was a no-show the first time and the second time, I know that he was in Montreal to meet with employees of Rights & Democracy.

I'm very anxious for us to begin and I hope that others will not go on as long as I have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Madame Lalonde.

We're going to move over to Mr. Patry, then to Mr. Rae, then to Mr. Obhrai.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Merci.

I'm not going to discuss Mr. Braun. He's willing to come on April 1. We agreed to have Mr. Braun here on April 1; he'll come with Jacques Gauthier. It could be all in two hours altogether with David Matas, Brad Farquhar, and any other current member who wishes to appear. I think that's fixed. He said he cannot come before April 1. He'll come on April 1.

On Tuesday, March 30, the people who've been fired, I don't think there are any legal issues about this, Mr. Lunney, if these people want to appear. The one elected by the union.... I think we provided the names. They sent us a letter saying they would like to come. I think we should agree on this. After April 1, we have Madame Trépanier and Payam Akhavan. On April 15, Mr. Broadbent, Mr. Clark, and Mr. Allmand, former president.

The last one, but I think it's important to have him also, we hope he will be gazetted by that time on April 20. That's it for us. That's going to provoke the discussion.

I think it's fair. We have balance on both sides. If you have any other witnesses you would like to have here, just tell us.

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay.

Mr. Rae and then Mr. Obhrai.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

If peace breaks out, that's a great thing.

How about this for an idea? If we're looking at this thing we've been working from, a lot of it--and Mr. Goldring talked about this--is the Bill C-300 issue and the G-8 summit priority on maternal and child health. Why wouldn't we do an hour on maternal and child health on Thursday? If you guys want to do that, that's absolutely fine. Presumably you're ready to do it. It doesn't have to be the minister; it can be whoever you want to put forward from CIDA or from anywhere else telling us more about it. We're debating it today in the House. Why don't we try to get at it on Thursday for an hour? Then next week we'll get into Rights and Democracy.

Peter, I'm convinced we're going to be able to get through Bill C-300 within the 60-day limit, and there will be lots of opportunity to discuss that.

Does that sound reasonable, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I think it would make sense to invite some government officials to discuss that for the second hour. My thought is that on March 30 we'll look at inviting the staff who were fired, along with the union. Ms. Trépanier has indicated she'd prefer to be there with them at that time, so we'll look at March 30 for that. Then we'll say for April 1 we'll look at having Mr. Gauthier and Mr. Braun. I'm also going to suggest that we have the board members as well on April 1.

We could look at having Mr. Latulippe here on April 13 as a possibility, and then Mr. Broadbent, Mr. Clark, and Mr. Allmand on April 15 as well, or vice versa. We'll look at trying to fit them all in, maybe just one week after we come back.

Mr. Patry, on that point.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I want to say that Madame Trépanier wants to appear with Dr. Akhavan. That's her wish. She wants to come with Dr. Akhavan, not with the union.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll work out the details.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Yes, we're going to work it out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Right now we're saying that we agree with the list, so we'll try to work around their schedules.

Mr. Obhrai.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have a couple of points I want to raise here and ask for some clarification from Mr. Patry.

First, on Thursday, in reference to Mr. Rae's suggestion, we would have to look at the availability at the department. Who can come? If there is a possibility that they can come, we'll ensure they will come. If there is no possibility and they cannot come, we would have to then look at some other way.

Let me just make sure, before we accept that, that I check back with the availability of those who are able to come at that time.

Now, the second question I want to clarify here is this. At the original discussion when we started, which we agreed upon, we said we would study Rights and Democracy, followed by making a report and recommendation to go back to Parliament. I'm not sure whether that is the intention. What is the intention? If that is the intention, that you want to study the report, make recommendations, and table it back to Parliament, then we're looking at additional days to sit and go over those reports and everything.

I just want to know if that is still the intention of the committee members to study the report, make a report, make the recommendations, as somebody suggested, and report it back to Parliament. Then I would say we need more time than what we have just picked up. Right now all we said were the witnesses, but we have no given time. We said we would study the report with the recommendations.

I do want to say that once we start studying the report, one can expect it to be a little more in-depth and it is not going to be a fly-by-night situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, Mr. Rae.