Foreign Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The logic of the suggestion is that we need to be part of this movement to get every kid in school, that is probably the most intelligent investment we could make. It does seem to be somewhat surprising that we would not be continuing to ramp that up as we move. Obviously there is the 2015 development target, but the millennium targets are not an end in themselves. They're just simply a way of goading all of us, to say here are some targets that we all need to achieve.

[Dr. Kevin Watkins]

I completely agree with you. In the way I think of this, it isn't a form of charity. This is an investment in future prosperity and the achievement of the wider goals that have been set by Canada within the international community. Now is absolutely not the time to be scaling down on those commitments.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Perhaps I'm just feeding you lines, but when we look back at the growth of literacy worldwide, one of the explanations for the success of Scotland in terms of becoming the centre of the Industrial Revolution was the fact that they had almost universal literacy in the middle of the seventeenth century as a result of widespread reading of the Bible.

The more we can encourage literacy, the more likely we are to see not only improved maternal health but improved economic development, improved entrepreneurship, and more innovation within society. There's hardly a thing you can point to that doesn't come from education. Wouldn't you agree with that?

[Dr. Kevin Watkins]

Thank you for feeding me the lines. I do appreciate it.

If you had to summarize the great drivers of the progress of nations across history and you had to pick the one that had made the most fundamental difference across time, if you summarized it in a single word, the word would be “education”. If you flip the question and name a country that has really succeeded in making breakthroughs in health, democracy, and economic growth without broad-based inclusive education, it's very hard to think of any countries that have done so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rae and Mr. Watkins.

We now go to Madam Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Someone once said that to get an education is to get richer. Obviously, in order to make a population richer, you have to take into consideration the whole financial aspect.

The government has decided to freeze aid financing for the next five years. I would like to know what kind of impact this freeze can have when 2015 is the target year to meet the Millenium Development Goals, among others. I imagine the freeze will slow down the pursuit of the goals Canada set for itself and will have a major impact on all education programs.

[Dr. Kevin Watkins]

I think those remarks and the points you raise are exactly the rights ones.

I think Canada, going back to the period since the Gleneagles agreement was made to double aid to sub-Saharan Africa, actually has had a very proud record since then. There have been big expansions to the aid budget. Those expansions have made a difference.

We now have a very different environment in two critical respects. First of all, because of the impact of the financial crisis and the way it interacted with the previous food crisis, we're going to see an increase in overall poverty numbers within the developing world, probably in the order of 150,000 million or so. Secondly, we've seen big increases in the levels of child malnutrition within the developing world. So the backdrop is already worrying.

Because of the combined effects of lower growth and lower levels of revenue collection in sub-Saharan Africa in particular, the capacity of governments to finance basic services such as education has been diminished. In the report, we estimate that the effect of the financial crisis will be to cut per-student spending in primary schools in sub-Saharan African by around 13%. In other words, it would have been 13% higher without the impact of the crisis.

To freeze support in a context of rising poverty and diminishing national capacity to finance is a scenario for a bad outcome. We can't on the one hand say to the international community that we want to accelerate progress and on the other hand say that we won't provide the needed resources to achieve that goal. If we will the ends, we have to provide the means. I think the problem at the moment is that we have a gap between the ambition and the commitment that's being demonstrated.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Watkins, are you familiar with the situation in Afghanistan? You know that Canada is very involved in Afghanistan. Canada has decided to withdraw but it is still interested in development. We know that many schools were built for both girls and boys, but the criticism we heard from a member of the Afghan Human Rights Commission is that education is limited to primary school and that there is no secondary education. So she said: “What kind of development is that for girls?”

What do you have to say about the impact on development of primary education only as compared to secondary education?

[Dr. Kevin Watkins]

I can't claim to be an expert on Afghanistan, but one of the cases we look at in this year's report is Canadian aid to education in Afghanistan. Of course, it's one of the most difficult environments in the world to try to do long-term development work. In fact, it's probably the most difficult environment in the world at the moment to try to do long-term development work.

One often hears the argument that you may as well forget long-term development in this context and just focus on emergency and humanitarian relief. I think the numbers from Canada, and in particular from the areas where the Canadian aid program has been most active, really speak for themselves.We have seen a very big increase in enrollment in primary schools. We've seen an increase in the recruitment and deployment of teachers. In particular, we've seen a dramatic increase in the number of girls in primary schools.

In order to achieve that, I think Canada, working with other donors, has really developed some very innovative approaches, pulling resources together, managing the resources on a collective basis, operating on a whole-of-government basis, recognizing that this isn't just a development problem but that there are security issues that have to be addressed and wider humanitarian issues that have to be addressed.

I actually believe the Afghanistan model is one that really could be far more broadly applied. It's certainly very relevant for southern Sudan. It's certainly very relevant for the DRC and other contexts.

I can't really comment in any detail on the linkages between primary and secondary education in Afghanistan, because it's really not my area of expertise. But what I would say is that clearly you can't achieve progress in secondary education unless you put the foundations in place, and there is clear evidence that the foundations have been put in place in areas like Kandahar where the aid program has been active.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move over to the Conservative side, and we'll start with Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Watkins, for being here. We have this truncated CV for you, which is very helpful. Just so I understand who it is we're speaking with, I wonder if you could tell me, Canadian Global Campaign for Education is geographically based out of what location in Canada?

[Dr. Kevin Watkins]

One of my colleagues is here from the Global Campaign, and she'd be much better placed to answer that.

[Dr. Karen Mundy, Member, Canadian Global Campaign for Education]

We have an office in Ottawa, but we are a campaign that includes representatives from universities, the Canadian Teachers' Federation, and 18 INGOs, international non-governmental actors, and faith bodies.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I have in hand the “Canadian Global Campaign for Education: Education For All Policy Brief”. That's the document I'm working from, which I think maybe is something that Mr. Rae may have worked from as well.

Just before I go on, what would be the total annual budget for Canadian Global Campaign for Education and what is its source?

[Dr. Karen Mundy]

The source of the...?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

The source of the funding for the Canadian Global Campaign for Education.

[Dr. Karen Mundy]

We get some part of our funding from our membership, and we have a matching amount of funding from the Canadian International Development Agency.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

Now, I must admit I'm rather perplexed with the second paragraph here, which says that “recent OECD data show that Canada’s aid commitments to basic education have fallen precipitously over the last three years”.

I'm a little perplexed by that, I suppose because the fact of the matter is that it's pretty substantially increased. It's quite the opposite to your assertion. So I'm a little perplexed about that. Maybe we can have an explanation from you.

First off, in the area of basic education, in another brief that I have from your organization, I see that you say, “Currently 72 million children and 759 million adults cannot realize their human right to receive a quality education.” You have used the figure for basic education, which is an old figure, by the way. In fact, in 2007-08 basic education was 270 million, not 150 million. Again, I apologize, but I have to contest your assertions here.

With this assertion that you have 72 million children and 759 million adults--and you only talk about basic education--you don't take into account the total amount of education funding that is coming from Canada, which is $301 million. You're talking about $150 million. I have to be a little critical of that.

Secondly, in 2008-09, perhaps you weren't aware that CIDA spent $401 million on education, of which $329 million was directed to basic education.

I think perhaps the people who did Mr. Rae's research weren't aware of these numbers. I suspect that--

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

All I'm basing it on are the numbers that are right here. That's all. It's the same sheet you have.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Okay, well, I'm looking at--

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

You have some additional information because you're the Parliamentary Secretary to CIDA. I congratulate you for that job, but I don't have that job.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Well, in 2008-09, CIDA spent $401 million.

Your assertion in your brief is that it's $150 million.

I'm having a little difficulty reconciling those numbers.

[Dr. Karen Mundy]

First of all, we're talking about U.S. dollars in our brief and you're talking about Canadian dollars. That doesn't make very much difference these days, as we all know.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I think they're pretty close to par today, aren't they?