Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Peter Julian]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I thank Mr. Dewar for giving me a second crack at this.

Mr. Tilson's comments were particularly interesting. We're looking at what would be a bulk transfer of somewhere around 80,000 litres to 90,000 litres per tank car.

I certainly appreciate, Mr. Miller, that you're saying you're open to amendments, because this is a massive loophole. It's a loophole you could drive a railcar through.

If you look at each of these railcars that export a manufactured product—water, according to the definition in the bill—you could be very clearly surpassing that 50,000-litre limit just with one railcar.

[Larry Miller]

With respect to my response to Mr. Tilson, if you knew where this quarry was that he's referring to—

[Peter Julian]

I do.

[Larry Miller]

If this procedure were to be applied for, first of all, it wouldn't come under federal jurisdiction. It would come under provincial jurisdiction. They're not taking water out of the Great Lakes or that kind of thing, so I believe it would come under the province.

I think that would need to be spelled out, that this isn't the same as taking that water right out of Lake Ontario or Lake Huron.

[Peter Julian]

On the exemption on water export, because there's no cap on the size of the container, you could be looking at a tanker rail car containing up to 80,000 litres or 90,000 litres.

[Larry Miller]

No, again, I think you're missing the key point here, Mr. Julian. This is not out of federal jurisdiction waters or waters that are under federal jurisdiction.

[Peter Julian]

You agree that there is no limit on the size of the container, right? That's a loophole, and you've agreed to look at it, and we appreciate that, but there is a massive loophole, a loophole the size of a railway car in this bill.

[Larry Miller]

I don't believe so, with all due respect.

[Peter Julian]

Mr. Chair, I hear comments from the other side, but I'm just reading the bill. “Bulk removal”, which is, of course, prohibited by the bill, “does not include the taking of a manufactured product that contains water, including water and other beverages in bottles or other containers, outside a water basin.”

Mr. Chair, it is pretty clear that there is a loophole here. It's a loophole that other witnesses will attest to as well.

[Larry Miller]

Could I just respond to that, Mr. Julian?

[Peter Julian]

You certainly can, Mr. Miller.

[Larry Miller]

There are some people out there who think bottling a small bottle of water is bulk water removal. Your version, and you're trying to make a point here, is that there is a loophole.

I don't think there is. I think it's covered off well enough—

[Peter Julian]

—but you admit there is no—your intent was 20-litre containers. The bill doesn't say that.

[Larry Miller]

No.

[Peter Julian]

What was your intent?

[Larry Miller]

I used that as an example.

[Peter Julian]

Fair enough, but I think Mr. Tilson's point is a very valid one. We could be looking at 80,000-litre to 90,000-litre containers that are leaving because of the exemption here. This is something that's a source of concern.

What that does is it diminishes paragraph (b) under subclause 3(2) of the bill:(b) by any other means by which more than 50 000 L of water are taken outside the water basin per day.

You can do that with a tank car.

[Larry Miller]

If this were under federal jurisdiction, I believe—

[Peter Julian]

That's my next question actually.

The problem here is that because there are loopholes in this federal legislation, if a province chooses to issue an export water permit, there is nothing in this bill that prevents that.

As you know, Mr. Miller, we've seen activists in places like British Columbia and Newfoundland and Labrador having to push back on bulk water exports because the provincial government either didn't understand the implications or felt that there was some kind of commercial benefit in bulk water exports.

Therefore, if we're relying on provincial legislation, we're right back to the same problem we had originally, which is that in some provinces there has been a conflict, or a drive to export bulk water.

[Larry Miller]

Okay, first of all, as I was going to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Miller, that's all the time we have for this round.

I'm going to let you finish the answer.

[Larry Miller]

My comment to that is, if this application were to load train cars, say out of Georgian Bay, as Mr. Tilson said, I believe the bill would cover that off. I strongly believe that. I just believe that it does as far as the provincial part of it.

You referred to your home province of B.C. Back when I first came to Ottawa in 2005, there was an application out there. I wrote every provincial member of Parliament in B.C.—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.That's all the time we have.

[Larry Miller]

Okay, I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I see a couple of points of clarification here.

I have Mr. Dechert, Mr. Tilson, then Mr. Schellenberger. This round will be five minutes, and then you'll be starting the second round of five minutes. I'll let you guys know where that is in that order.

Mr. Dechert.