Evidence of meeting #58 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was council.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Lead Director, President, Business Arts Inc, Gedex Inc.
We're in a very early stage of discussion with the U.K. government about the Falklands and some of the implications of actually understanding where things are as opposed to blindly defending what may not be useful.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
My last question is for you, Ms. Grant.
You talked about how, when we become chair of this council, we definitely shouldn't use it as a soapbox for self-promotion, that we go there looking for common goals. Going back to what we're talking about here, I think it's important that we show leadership of what we're doing in our country. Hopefully, we are leading in how we're dealing with an environment, how we're dealing with our first nations people, and whatever, and we bring that to the table.
Is that what you see? How do you see it happening, when you say that instead of being self-promoters, we need to have this common goal approach?
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Ms. Grant, we have about 30 seconds left, but I'm going to let you answer the question as quickly as you can.
9:45 a.m.
Adjunct Professor, Canadian Studies Department, Trent University, As an Individual
Thank you.
Yes, it's leadership. If you look at a chair, leadership is bringing people together on a common goal. If you're going to introduce something that should be changed, you don't do it by challenging them. You do it by example. We have some work to do on the environment. We should talk about what we're really good at. The technology that NORDREG has is superb.
We do need backup of ships, and we're far behind in that. We're far behind in terms of devolution of powers, for example, within Nunavut, compared to Greenland. We just have to be careful what we promote, but I think we can promote passion and caring, and we're a tolerant people.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you, Ms. Grant.
We're going to move to our second round, which will be five minutes of questions and answers.
We'll start with you, Ms. Brown.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to say to the witnesses, first of all, thank you so much for giving us a full two hours of your time. Sometimes we get such a short opportunity for questions that we're just starting to explore something, but we don't really get to the end. Thank you so much.
Ms. Grant, you talked about the infrastructure that many of the other northern cities have developed over decades, maybe even over centuries, because people have existed in these communities for many years. You talked about the lack of resources or the lack of infrastructure in Canada, and that there hasn't been a focus for a long time.
Right now you compliment the government for the money we're putting in the budget. We have a lot to do to catch up. I have downloaded from the Canadian government website Canada's northern strategy, our presence, our stewardship, our development, all of those things that we need to do.
You talked about schools being established and there being teachers colleges in some of these northern communities. I thank you for identifying that.
My question is for Mr. Breukelman.
You're looking at creating job opportunities in the north. What kind of, and I will use the word “drag”, because sometimes these things happen as a drag into the area from social infrastructure that needs to come. What's going to happen with this infrastructure as you see these jobs being created?
Ms. Grant, perhaps you could comment as well about what would be necessary to fulfill the social responsibilities that need to happen in the north.
Could both of you speak to that?
9:45 a.m.
Adjunct Professor, Canadian Studies Department, Trent University, As an Individual
The retraining program is getting the current employment opportunities for the current age group. Starting at the bottom, we're doing catch-up on retraining. There were complaints within various communities that wanted to work out of Rankin and Baker that there wasn't enough. They couldn't get in to get the jobs at the mines.
The government did come with some money, but we know that between getting the money and getting the retraining, there's always a lag involved. You mentioned the word “catch-up”. Whether it's dock facilities, roads, updated heating and lighting in communities, we are at total catch-up.
When doing the presentation I was a little confused as to where were foreign affairs and domestic affairs. Yes, a northern policy does touch on the stewardship and the responsibility on that.
Yes, there is retraining, but if there could be more of the private sector coming in to do that retraining, it would be really helpful.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Mr. Breukelman, do supply and demand work hand in hand? Could you speak to that?
9:50 a.m.
Lead Director, President, Business Arts Inc, Gedex Inc.
From my perspective, infrastructure is really what you're talking about. Traditionally, globally, infrastructure in most countries has occurred as the result of an opportunity to exploit a resource or something. Infrastructure grows up around that exploitation. In fact, if government or corporations or rational people had perfect information on where the hubs of infrastructure should lie or could lie, they would plan it more effectively. It would be permanent by definition and wouldn't be dependent upon one single source of value.
For example, the Ring of Fire is being explored with great gusto right now in northern Ontario. It's a terrific opportunity. Government will face an interesting question at some point, which is if there's a huge find at one part, at Eagle's Nest for example, but there's a critical mass of large finds 100 miles away, where will the infrastructure go? Will it go to both? Will it go to a central hub where both can be serviced? If that information was available, the government would be able to make a rational and economic choice, and a choice that would result in some form of permanency. That's what Gedex is all about, allowing government to have the tools to make those choices.
I believe that whether you're looking at providing funds to increase the infrastructure of ports, of resource centres, or of communities, there has to be a permanence and a growth opportunity within those locations or you are just creating these temporary spikes of growth.
On a related note, I also think that one of the issues that Canadians face is that although we all know the Arctic is there, and we all have a grasp of how important it is and how vast it is, there is a massive misunderstanding about the livability in the north.
I think as infrastructure grows, as cities grow, as locations grow and as climate changes, it's just as important to educate people, that is, Canadians across the country, that these are liveable environments. It's not a barren wasteland. There are families growing in these places. That creates a new sense of frontier, which Canada was built upon.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much. We're slightly over time. We're going to turn it back over to Mr. Bevington for five minutes.
November 29th, 2012 / 9:50 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I just have a comment on Mr. Breukelman's testimony. He's right. If we'd known there were four active diamond mines in the Slave geological province, we would have run a transmission line for hydroelectric power in there and we would have saved billions of dollars.
Information is extremely valuable. Public information is extremely valuable as well, because a government would have had to make that choice. It wouldn't have been made by the free market. That requires industrial planning, which I haven't seen a whit of in the years of my work in public government.
Mrs. Grant, I had the opportunity to see the presentation that was made by one of your students here in Ottawa a few months ago. You did some very interesting work on ice in the polar ice cap and tying it to what happened with the Chinese icebreaker.
Your thesis was that it's going to be the route for shipping and to consider that the Northwest Passage is going to be really any kind of a shipping magnet would be going in the wrong direction. We need to recalibrate our thinking about that.
Is that still your view?
9:55 a.m.
Adjunct Professor, Canadian Studies Department, Trent University, As an Individual
Yes, it is. I'll qualify that because development of the resources in the Arctic is going to affect the partial transits of the Northwest Passage. As a through route, the transpolar is much faster and you don't get the temporary blockages of ice. The icebreaker that went through in the summer was a conventional icebreaker, not a nuclear one, and it went straight across. It tried to get to the north pole and it was worried that it was running out of gas. It didn't quite get to the north pole but it came back and went between the north pole and Russia, well out of their internal waters. This is going to be both east and west, I think. I could be proven wrong. It will depend on—
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Isn't it correct that we should be looking closely at the composition of that polar ice cap?
9:55 a.m.
Adjunct Professor, Canadian Studies Department, Trent University, As an Individual
Absolutely.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
This is essential for our decision-making. It's such a dynamic area right now that if we don't pay careful attention to it, we're not going to have the correct policies in place.
9:55 a.m.
Adjunct Professor, Canadian Studies Department, Trent University, As an Individual
Correct.
I believe the IMO must get a mandatory polar code that will cover all waters, not just our internal waters. Secondary to that, we have to get fishing regulations. The number of large factory fishing ships in and out of our Arctic, that's a huge increase in destination traffic.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
About the Russians, the presentation made to us by Foreign Affairs at the beginning of this study said that we're going to be looking at economic development and sustainable communities. That's where the focus of our efforts on the Arctic is going to be.
How are the Russians going to take that? If we start pushing national issues at an international forum, is that going to make it even more difficult for RAIPON to be at the table? That's what the dispute is in Russia. Is that not correct?
9:55 a.m.
Program Director, Munk-Gordon Arctic Security Program, Walter and Duncan Gordon Foundation
The dispute between RAIPON and the Russian government is over the extraction of resources in RAIPON 's traditional territory. There's a great deal of diversity in the economic development of the Arctic. Russia receives about 60% of its GNP from its Arctic territories. Russia has a huge stake in seeing that continue. Russia has much more infrastructure and development, so this may be an area in which we have an opportunity for mutual learning.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
That's all the time we have.
We're going to move to the last question in the second round.
Mr. Van Kesteren.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Thank you for being here. What a fascinating discussion we're having this morning. Like everybody else, I wish I had more time.
I'm going to concentrate my questions towards you, Mr. Breukelman.
I get pumped listening to you. When I hear about Canadian companies doing what your company is doing, it is absolutely fascinating. If we think about the history of this country, a generation or a century back, somebody, and I forget who, said that all that is worth discovering has been discovered. There was that arrogance of thought back in the 1800s.
You've just neatly painted out for us the picture of the north. This is incredible. This is a whole new world that is probably going to keep humankind busy for thousands of years, and we're just now getting the opportunity.
We talk about climate change, but there's also opportunity, isn't there, in the fact that we're being able to unlock these things through technologies like yours.
The Mining Association of Canada was in my office recently. They told me that they're going to need 110,000 employees in the next five years, and the spinoff factor from that is 6:1. What an opportunity this is for our first nations people. What an opportunity this is for the Inuit. I'm so pleased that the other organizations are focusing our attention on how we're to do this.
This is such a great opportunity for this nation and for the first nations people as well. You briefly touched on this, but could you talk to us about the jobs impact not only for those people but for us here in the southern part of the nation? Like Bob, I'm speaking specifically of southwestern Ontario, but of course, it would make for jobs right across this country.
Could you tell us about that?
9:55 a.m.
Lead Director, President, Business Arts Inc, Gedex Inc.
Canada is a resource-based economy, or there's a foundation of its being a resource-based economy. This has created a level of stability in our country that few other countries have the pleasure of enjoying. That, combined with our socio-economic approach to governance and life, has made this almost a perfect environment, regardless of what the papers tell us.
Whenever one discovers a massive opportunity for growth—a resource base, an oil base, water where water doesn't exist, and this is something else that Gedex does—one lays a foundation of stability, comfort, and certainty within that environment. This means that the people who are there have an opportunity to work, to grow families, to increase the value and the scope of the country, and to attract others who are willing to come up and be a part of that growth.
Canadians are great. When there's an opportunity calling, we rush to fill the void. We always have. It's how this country was built. It's a country that was built differently from the United States, where settlers moved first and the rule of law followed. In Canada, the rule of law went first and settlement followed. That has always made us a fundamentally different country, with a shared experience, from the United States. Rule of law is just the same as having the information that allows for an orderly movement and growth within an environment.
Now, the native and first nations communities represent an area of great interest to my family and me. I think we demonstrated this with our partners early in the days of IMAX, when we worked to bring their story in many films or parts of films to the world.
We also believe that Gedex benefits these nations tremendously. Let's come at it from two perspectives.
One is, where resources are found, jobs occur. Where secure and long-term jobs exist, growth, stability and scaling can occur.
The other is that we all appreciate and respect the history and the fundamental existence of the lands in the hands of the people who were here. It's also important to them to understand as clearly as they possibly can what exists on their own lands, because it allows them to plan the evolution of their social infrastructure.
If there's no oil deposit, if there's no resource deposit, if there's nothing there to exploit and grow, then at least they can plan the path forward for their community in a way that's consistent with that and not have to worry about if they move from point A to point B they're giving up an opportunity to exploit a massive resource.
I think the key is that information leads to certainty, and certainty leads to comfort and stability and growth.
I talked too long, right?
10 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!