Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 12th, 2013

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It's Tunisia, yes.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

And that's it. You've no other embassies in Africa that have been closed in the last five years.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We'll get you the information.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'd appreciate that. It's important to have our infrastructure on the ground when we're dealing with this crisis, which will go on.

One of the things that surprised me today was about getting advice. Mr. Fowler was here at committee. I asked if you had asked him for his advice when it comes to what's happening on the ground. Could you share with us why you didn't ask Mr. Fowler for his advice? He's an experienced diplomat, and obviously he went through what he went through recently. Perhaps you're considering or acknowledging that maybe you should have sought his advice as to what's happening on the ground.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Fowler has certainly been very open to providing advice to the government and to all parliamentarians. He obviously has a distinguished record as a former diplomat and foreign service officer. I can tell you I have one better than that. I have the entire foreign service and diplomatic team at the Department of Foreign Affairs that I count on and rely on.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But why not just invite him in to ask his advice on what's happening on the ground? He's the foremost expert, I would argue, in the country right now.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm not going to get into a debate with a former diplomat.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It's not a debate; it's about getting advice, and getting the best advice. I would encourage you to do so in the future. As he said, he's willing to share information. Perhaps we should do that.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

He's been quite free in sharing information with all of us.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

As the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the lead on this, I think it's important that you get the best advice. We want that for our country.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I want to tell you I am very pleased by the exceptional advice and counsel that I get from the officials at the department.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But more is better in this case, I would argue, Minister.

We are in a situation where the government has said it supports the road map, it supports development, but we haven't seen the dollars on the table. We have the $13 million, roughly 2% of the ask. FISMA wasn't something the government contributed to. The road map, the government supports, we supported, but there's no money.

Institutionally speaking, we're at a loss, because Rights and Democracy no longer exists. On the institute for democratic development, the government announced it a couple of times and then it died. Is there any plan in the future for bringing forward this institute for democratic development? This is something that would have been very helpful obviously in this region and other regions.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I met with Valerie Amos about two or three weeks ago. The request she gave me face to face was in the order of $390 million for humanitarian aid, under both her offices and the UN World Food Programme. The minister virtually immediately responded with $13 million, which is pretty close to the typical Canadian percentage, just under 4%.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Do you intend to provide money for the road map, specifically the $3 million? Do you intend to go forward on the institute for democratic development, as you had promised in the past? All we have now is this office of religious freedom, which isn't up and running and there's no one leading it.

My question very specifically is this. Are you going to go forward on the institute and are you going to put money into the road map?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

With respect to the road map, it's just been brought forward. We're reflecting and considering that with our allies.

I don't take everything at face value in terms of what comes out of Bamako. As you know, you and I were supposed to visit Bamako, I believe, the day or two before the prime minister was arrested. These have not been trusted interlocutors when it comes to democracy and freedom.

With respect to financial asks, we'll carefully consider them. But we don't make the decisions.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Finally, Minister, if I may, you've stated in the past that the greatest threat you see to foreign affairs, global affairs, is extremism, terrorism. I think that's fine, and many would agree, and it's a threat to our collective existence. But when I see that we are shrinking our footprint in places like Africa, the hot spot right now, and when I see that we don't have the capacity or the tools in our tool kit—as I mentioned, the institute for democratic development, shutting down Rights and Democracy, and we have this office of religious freedom without anyone actually heading it—then it really begs the question: Is the government taking this seriously?

It seems to be drive-by diplomacy; our foreign policy is adrift. I need to know that we have a government that's serious about the capacity, because you have mentioned this threat we have and what we have to deal with.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

With respect to drive-by diplomacy, you, sir, in the first few hours of this engagement wanted to send Canadian troops to Mali, on the ground, and even your leader didn't stand up behind that within a matter of time. So don't talk about—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Order. That's all the time, Mr. Dewar. We're going to have to come back next round.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Dewar, that's all the time we have for this one.

We're going to move over to the government side.

Ms. Brown, you have the floor for seven minutes, please.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ministers, thank you for being here today.

This has been a very important discussion for us over the last couple of weeks. I sincerely hope that Canadians who are watching our committee proceedings here are getting a sense of Canada's involvement, our concern for what's going on in Mali. As I said in committee last week, I have a vested interest. I have supported a little girl through World Vision for the last 10 years, and for Tolatta's sake, I want to see Mali get back to a situation where democracy thrives.

To both of you, if you would...as I said in our earlier hour, we have members on the other side who are trying to portray this myth that Canada has left Africa, that Canada has left the Sahel region. I wonder if each of you could speak to Canada's engagement there, in Africa in general if you want, but specifically in the Sahel region, and the things that we have done to help build governance, to help train security forces, specifically the Kofi Annan centre in Ghana. We're working with ECOWAS.

Could you speak to those issues?

Minister Baird, this discussion about AFISMA.... I was in Malawi two weeks ago and had the opportunity to speak with the general of the Malawian army, who talked about AFISMA. The solution in Mali needs to be an African-led solution. I wonder if you could speak to that as well.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'll take the first item, if I may.

It's really important to understand.... This crisis is very troubling and certainly extremely disappointing, especially to Canada, because of our long-standing involvement in Mali, which goes back to the 1960s, actually. It became a country of focus in 2009.

I can enumerate for you the amount of Canadian taxpayer dollars that have been dedicated to Mali, which averages out at about $100 million a year. Aside from all of that, going to the question about whether or not we have, as a Canadian government, forgotten about or diminished our concern or our involvement in Africa, nothing could be further from the truth.

Having visited there, as I know some of you have as well, there's a high degree of Canadian NGO involvement in that part of Africa. Last year, with the drought situation, we not only stood up the matching fund situation, which I believe averted a huge disaster, but we also visited the contiguous countries, receiving Malian displaced persons and so forth, and speaking with them as well. So we have a great appreciation.

I believe Minister Baird has been there five times. The Prime Minister was there last fall. I certainly visited. There has been, sincerely, a true, honest, and humanitarian commitment to Mali before, now, and it certainly will continue in the future.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We have been very active in recent years, particularly in the Sahel region, and directly in Mali with respect to counterterrorism and capacity-building. We've spent millions on countries in the Sahel to strengthen their capacity in a number of areas: law enforcement, the military, intelligence capacity, legal regimes, and criminal justice, specifically targeting terrorism. Mali has been the most important beneficiary of our counterterrorism capacity-building program in that region since 2010.

Since 2010 we've provided more than $7 million to fund and enhance the operational capacity of the country's security forces, as well as to strengthen its legal regime specifically against terrorism. This is in addition to the significant humanitarian resources that have gone in.

I have been particularly engaged on this file. I have met with representatives from Mali. Two days ago I spent some time with the ambassador from Mauritania. Obviously we have gotten together with my counterparts in Nigeria. The chairman of the African Union and the President of Benin visited with us and gave us specific briefings on this.

Having said that, I am very cautious about sending in potentially thousands of Canadian troops to Malian soil, as has been called for by others, to what will and is already amounting to a counter-insurgency. We're not going to get into another Afghanistan in this region at the drop of a hat.

We do have an important responsibility as a country to be actively involved supporting the track back to democracy. We do have an obligation to support the fight against terrorism. That's why we're supporting a key ally, France, in this regard. We're providing substantial humanitarian support, and we are prepared to do more, as this problem will not be fixed immediately.

We have some important requests before the government with respect to support for regional organizations and before a mission in Mali. We'll reflect on those carefully before we come to any conclusions.

At the same time, some people are throwing around lines that we should immediately send hundreds of thousands of Canadian troops for peacekeeping. We have one side, a military government that took power in a coup last year, and another side, an al-Qaeda affiliate. I don't think they're going to sign on for a peacekeeping mission. It is very much going to be an insurgency on the ground, as we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Before we make some expeditious, quick decision to send in Canadian troops, we should look at the facts. That's why we have been very clear that that's not something we're looking at doing.

Does that mean that Canada won't be involved? No. We can support ECOWAS, the UN, and Mali's neighbours.

I think one of the things central to the December 20 resolution of the Security Council is that it be African-led, and we strongly support that. We've seen the success that can lead to, for example, in Somalia, where a substantial amount of Canadian resources have gone into having other African Union member forces provide support there. That's the strategy Canadians will get behind, not sending Canadian troops to Mali.