Evidence of meeting #73 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was individuals.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's complicated to answer that quickly.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
12:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, yes.
There's no question that sanctions have hurt Iran very badly, despite the benefits to the Revolutionary Guards, which we talked about in the context of the previous question. I don't think there's any question that this has pushed Iran into negotiations.
The problem is that today the situation has changed. Iran has been able to develop what they call a resistance economy that allows them to avoid sanctions. Iran trades with Asian countries, not only with China, but also with semi-allies like Malaysia, for example. Iran has diversified its trade considerably and is much more resistant to sanctions than it was in the past. This limits the effectiveness of sanctions.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much for the testimony today.
Mr. Juneau, everybody has asked you many questions, so I want to just echo the testimony you've given us that we don't have the resources and the transparency is not there. I, in fact, have asked Order Paper questions and have brought it up as a point of privilege because I can't get information, as a parliamentarian, on our sanctions regime. Obviously, I'm terrified to hear you so clearly state not only that our allies are disappointed in Canada's enforcement, but that those being sanctioned don't see it as an impediment.
What I'd like to do today is ask some questions of our colleagues from the Red Cross and the ICRC.
If possible, could you give us a little more information about the impacts of sanctions on humanitarian access in Syria? We've seen calls to lift sanctions in order to reach more people with life-saving assistance, but that feels wrong, considering that we know the al-Assad regime is continuing to perpetrate crimes against the Syrian people.
How do we find ways to reconcile our sanctions obligations and our enforcement of sanctions with our humanitarian law obligations?
12:45 p.m.
Catherine Gribbin Senior Legal Advisor, International Humanitarian Law, Canadian Red Cross
Thank you very much.
My colleague Alain will take the lead on that.
12:45 p.m.
Head of Mission to Canada, International Committee of the Red Cross
Thank you so much for the question.
Syria is a very complex situation. It's a very difficult situation to work in, notwithstanding the sanctions regimes around it. From an ICRC perspective and for the humanitarian response, it's a very challenging area. On top of that, we have now had this natural disaster, the earthquake, which is adding another layer to it.
I will let my colleague Austin start answering those questions. Maybe at the end, Catherine, you can jump in and speak to the implications that you face responding to the earthquake in Syria as well.
It's over to you, Austin, and then we can continue from there.
Thank you.
September 25th, 2023 / 12:45 p.m.
Austin Shangraw Legal Advisor, International Committee of the Red Cross
Thank you for the question.
Complementing what Alain said, I think Syria is a good example of where we see the challenges that come up with private sector de-risking and those issues we mentioned in our opening statement with banks, suppliers and logistics companies that we rely upon to carry out our work. That's because in Syria, you have a situation where you have numerous overlapping sanctions regimes and counterterrorism regulations for many countries that are in place, and that leads to a lot of confusion about what's allowed and what's not allowed and, if there are humanitarian carve-outs in place, what can be supported and when. What we see is that this results in delays for humanitarian organizations like the ICRC in being able to procure items that are desperately needed for a humanitarian response, and to have funding sent to the country and our offices to be able to facilitate our activities.
Second, this also brings up the point that we're in a dynamic situation of a protracted conflict that can have various emergency situations also arise, and it shows that conflicts can evolve and change. When it comes to humanitarian carve-outs, it really represents the need to ensure that carve-outs capture the breadth of humanitarian activities that can take place in such situations, responding to both protracted conflicts and those emergency situations.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
Ms. Gribbin, when you respond, could you also talk a bit about Bill C-41? You know the challenges that the New Democratic Party had with Bill C-41. It's a bad law, from my perspective. We got that humanitarian carve-out included, but it is still incredibly onerous.
Could you talk about your experience with that as you answer?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Legal Advisor, International Humanitarian Law, Canadian Red Cross
Absolutely. Thank you very much.
Echoing the comments of my colleagues, I will build on what Austin said. Where we have experienced the impact of sanctions is that the very people we're concerned about protecting.... It's the civilian population that is really at the hands of those individuals—the designated groups, the designated individuals and the governments themselves. The civilian population is greatly impacted by those same people. What we are speaking about when it comes to that notion of a carve-out is not to run interference at all with the sanctions, working toward the end they are aspiring to, but rather to create a space for humanitarian organizations and, exactly as my colleague Austin said, to be able to do so in a timely manner.
I can give an example. We've had colleagues go to work in the response to Syria and, as Austin mentioned, in addition to the already very difficult task of figuring out who needs what and organizing all of the goods, they had to put aside time in order to navigate every regime internationally that applied to that particular situation.
When there is a clear carve-out—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Senior Legal Advisor, International Humanitarian Law, Canadian Red Cross
Pardon me.
If there's a clear carve-out, it delineates and cuts off that work, and it means that our work and efforts can be spent more on the response.
Thank you.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you very much.
For the second round, the first two members are provided three minutes, and the second two members have a minute and a half.
We'll start off with Mr. Hoback.
You have three minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. Juneau, I'm curious. You talked about Canada's reputation abroad because of our inability to enforce sanctions. Is there any way to simplify the sanctions so that we can make them simpler to enforce? Are there things we could be doing or things we should be looking at that would simplify the whole process?
12:50 p.m.
Associate Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you.
One way to answer that question would be to distinguish between sweeping and targeted sanctions. Sweeping sanctions are sanctions that target a government as a whole, a country as a whole or the economy as a whole. Targeted sanctions target individuals or entities one by one, and you list them.
Sweeping sanctions are, as a rule of thumb—and I'm simplifying it here—extremely labour-intensive. The demand on the intelligence community, law enforcement, the CBSA and so on is huge, because the number of individuals and entities they have to monitor and then potentially enforce sanctions on is huge. We simply don't have the resources for that in a context where, to deal even with non-sanctions issues, we are already overstretched—CSIS, the RCMP and so on.
As a general rule, I would be very reluctant—it's not a blanket “no”—to impose additional sweeping sanctions. I very much support the targeted type.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Ms. Gribbin, in that light, when the Red Cross is dealing with different countries and there are both targeted and sweeping sanctions in place, how do you administer that? How do you administer sanctions that Canada puts on a country, versus the U.S., the U.K. or other places? How do you differentiate? Do you make substitutions when one country says you can't ship something there? If you can't get it from Canada, do you get it from the U.S. or somewhere else?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Legal Advisor, International Humanitarian Law, Canadian Red Cross
That's an interesting point. I'll turn to my colleagues from the International Committee of the Red Cross as well. We work as part of a federation and as part of a global movement. We are always working with our partner national society and all the local law that applies in that particular jurisdiction. We're subject to that.
Obviously, we're also responsible for and subject to Canadian law. We have the in-house expertise. We have the auditing, the planning, the monitoring, the evaluation and the oversight in order to ensure that our programming and our financial responsibilities, etc., are in compliance with Canadian law.
As I just mentioned, Syria was a perfect example where we had goods coming in from all around the world. We worked with our movement partners in order to navigate that. We had the staff, including lawyers, in order to do that very analysis you're speaking about.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Do you think food and medical aid should ever be part of sanctions?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Legal Advisor, International Humanitarian Law, Canadian Red Cross
Are you asking if they should be subject to the exemption?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Do you think they should always be exempted and never included in a sanction?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Legal Advisor, International Humanitarian Law, Canadian Red Cross
As a lawyer, I never want to say “always”—we like the phrase “it depends”—but at an initial point, yes, absolutely. When you're talking about the delivery of food and medical assistance to the civilian population, those who shouldn't be impacted by the sanctions in the first place, they should absolutely be included.
12:50 p.m.
Associate Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I agree as a matter of principle, but again, the devil is often in the details.
Another country that I look to is Yemen. The Houthis, the rebel group that controls northwest Yemen, have been massively manipulating humanitarian assistance, sending it to their own soldiers, so it does raise really tricky questions.
