Evidence of meeting #74 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regime.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
PhD Candidate, International Relations, As an Individual
Right now, Russia's main ally and economic partner is China, obviously. Since 2014, Russia has been rapidly turning to its Chinese partner, almost to the point of becoming dependent on it in many import and export markets.
Most of the other partners are part of BRICS, the group of countries attempting to challenge the current world order to some extent.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
September 27th, 2023 / 5:15 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. This is a very interesting conversation. Like some of my colleagues, I would love to sit and spend an awful lot of time picking your brains, but we have a very short amount of time here.
Dr. Charron, you testified before this committee in 2016 about the study of Canadian sanctions and you spoke a lot about your concerns with Canadian sanctions practices. The committee report made a series of recommendations, but we haven't seen a lot of those recommendations followed through on. I have two questions for you in that regard.
First of all, what is your assessment on how well the government has responded to that report? How well do you think they have met the recommendations or responded to them?
I'm going to assume that you're going to say there are some things, at least in part, wanting in that response. Why do you think that has been the case, considering that this is something that is key and has become an increasing part of our foreign affairs international policies? Why do you think these recommendations are so slow to be implemented?
I sort of answered your question there. Sorry about that.
5:20 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
It's a great question.
The fact that we have the same recommendations that come up time and time again and they're on the list and they don't seem to get ticked off is, I think, the metric that says we're not advancing.
I would say that this is not unique to any one party. This has been a long-standing problem. I started raising the concerns back 15 years ago.
We need to get a handle on our legislation. It's a bit sloppy; there's no coherence, and we're here again. I think because there is political merit in putting names on a list—for Canadians, we're doing something—but now we realize that's not sufficient and we actually need to integrate and coordinate with allies. Now we need to get down to the business of measuring how these are having an effect, because it's a much more complicated world.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
For you to call some of our sanctions sloppy.... It's easy to put someone on a list when we don't have that follow-through. In the last session, we heard from witnesses who said that the rest of the world that we are sanctioning is in fact laughing at us because they know that the sanctions don't have any teeth to them and that these sanctions don't mean anything.
From your perspective, do the sanctions mean anything? We have also heard today that they are working in the case of Russia, but do you think the majority are actually doing anything? Do they even have a political value in terms of signalling to other countries our displeasure with their actions?
5:20 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
We can't answer that question unless we measure it. I will say that Canada has some of the best public servants in the world, but they are beleaguered and they don't have enough resources. We've had a tsunami of sanctions, and perhaps we need to put the brakes on and say that it's not about the number on the list. Let's look at the list and see how we can make those individuals and entities.... Let's make sure that we have the right people, and this requires conversations with our allies.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
That's just it, right? If we have a tsunami, as you say, of sloppy sanctions, it doesn't do anything. It's better to have those targeted ones that are actually being enforced.
You also spoke to the CBC previously about the lack of qualified investigators and technical experts. You spoke today on this panel about the fact that we don't have the people in place.
First of all, are there other countries that are doing that better that we can learn from? I know you indicated the U.S. I'd like you to talk a little bit more about that. How do we do that? How do we get those skilled people in place? What are the next steps that the Canadian government needs to take?
5:20 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Well, I'm sure Craig Martin is going to have some advice on this as well, but there are a number of associations that provide sanctions training and certification. You take an examination. It goes through the EU, U.K. and U.S. sanctions. They often spend a day on Canada, usually on our blocking legislation for Cuba.
We just don't have this culture of certification, and I think it would extend to money laundering as well. These are connected, yet we don't seem to have this culture of training. We don't see Global Affairs saying, like we see OFAC officials in the U.S. saying, “Let's talk about the latest sanctions. Here are some basic facts about them. Here is some guidance we can provide.”
It's coming and it's improving, but it's going to take Canadian-specific training that Canadians, businesses and our allies take so that we can start to integrate and coordinate our sanctions better, and it will improve enforcement.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you.
We'll go to the second round now.
Mr. Aboultaif, you have three minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Thank you.
Dr. Charron, for the sake of the short time I have, I have three short questions that will probably require short answers.
The first one is this: If you had to rate Canada's transparency measures for sanctioning, how would you rate them?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
They're poor. We have very little information about sanctions that's publicly available. On targets, we often don't even get birthdates.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Considering Canada's cultural mosaic and the mysterious nature of our sanctioning system, do you believe the Canadian public should be aware of the sanctioning processes?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Absolutely. We are required to. It says quite clearly that if you engage in sanctions-busting activity, you are obligated to contact the RCMP, so yes.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
You mentioned the sanctions certification system. How much would you emphasize to the government to establish something like this?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Well, I don't think the government necessarily has to establish it, but they do need to inform some of the associations to make sure that the right Canadian sanctions training is being offered and available and to encourage sanctions practitioners and people in the government to take it.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Is there a reasonable threat posed to the unity of Canadian society in not having sufficient transparency measures in place?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I'm not sure I would go that far, but it does weaken western coherence and legitimacy when, for example, the EU or the U.K. sanctions.... If they're going to sanction Gabon for their coup, but Canada doesn't, what does that say about Canada's respect for unconstitutional changes of government?
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
If these are some of the unintended consequences, do you believe that the government is taking into consideration Canadian unity in approaching having a policy on the sanctions systems?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Well, I have no doubt that the Government of Canada is always concerned about the unity of the country. I mean, that is one of the number one national interests—
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I guess I'm not understanding your question.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Do you believe that the current policy is taking into consideration these things? Is that why it's not effective?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I think there are a myriad of factors. I don't think we can distill it down to doing one thing and then all of a sudden everything will be terrific. It's really complicated. We're asking the sanctions bureau to change the tires on a car while it's careening down a highway. It's really difficult.
