Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have a very quick final question.

For the 120,000 ethnic Armenians in the Republic of Armenia, what is their citizenship status vis-à-vis the Republic of Armenia? Are they considered Armenian citizens as well as Azerbaijani citizens?

[Andrew Turner]

According to discussions I had with the UNHCR last week, the documents that the residents in Nagorno-Karabakh possess would not automatically confer citizenship for Armenia. Therefore, they have emphasized that technically, they would be considered refugees, although many have close family ties.

They are encouraging the Government of Armenia to ensure that they are given a rapid process to become full citizens. This is largely a matter of technicality, given the close ties that exist between the communities, but the UNHCR has specified that some work will need to be done to naturalize them as Armenians.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Is that an indication, Ambassador, that this may—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Chong, you are out of time.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Could I just—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You're considerably out of time.

Next we go to Mr. Zuberi. You have five minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Turner, for being here today.

I would like to pick up on a theme that has been brought up in the testimony so far around sanctions. This is an important tool that we use to promote peace and security around the world, as I'm sure you're very well aware.

With respect to sanctions and this particular conflict, has Armenia asked allies to apply sanctions to Azerbaijan at this point in time?

[Andrew Turner]

No. As I said, there seems to be considerable debate within Armenia as to whether or not sanctions should be applied at this time.

We have certainly seen calls for support and for action, but there are debates taking place on a range of questions, including sanctions, CSTO membership and accountability processes. We're seeing debates within Armenia about what mechanisms could be usefully pursued and what the best timing is to do so.

There is a strong sense that the major emphasis should be on reaching a negotiated peace agreement.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

It makes sense that we would wait for Armenia to take the lead, given that it is directly impacted. Armenians and Azeris are directly involved, so we have to consider how these two actors are conducting themselves before we get involved.

I'm sure you're very well aware of what's happening, given your presence in Armenia. You alluded to this, but in terms of sanctions as a tool to promote peace, can you tell us how that would play out—the question of sanctions—in this particular instance, and on the path to peace?

[Andrew Turner]

The pursuit of sanctions right now would risk disrupting the ongoing efforts at peace. While we have not seen anyone take the route of sanctions, we have seen some announcements from France, for example, about the possibility of military support, which have caused Azerbaijan to withdraw from planned international meetings and discussions that could have helped to advance the peace process. Whether that would have happened or not, we don't know, but it certainly provided an excuse that could be used.

Again, that type of activity—the imposition of sanctions—could risk providing excuses for some parties to the conflict to stall further on peace talks, which is obviously counterproductive.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That's really helpful, because it helps us reach our ultimate objective, which is peace. Sanctions are a very important and critical tool, which you must use at the appropriate time. However, to your point around peace, it is clearly our objective to help people in Armenia and the region.

With respect to the right of return, it was discussed earlier and it is a very important concept. In my understanding, the Government of Canada has called for Armenians to have the full right of return to the region of Nagorno-Karabakh. We also know, as you said, that there are close ties.

If Armenians from the region choose not to return, with respect to collecting belongings, having full access to their assets and being able to have those assets respected in terms of their monetary value, can you comment on that second point? We obviously call for the full respect of the right of return, but if ethnic Armenians choose another path, can you elaborate a bit further on that second point of how they can get their rights if they choose an alternative path?

[Andrew Turner]

Canada has been very clear that we have called, as have our like-minded allies, for the full right of return without any limitations, and that would include the right of Armenians to return for a short period to collect belongings, to take care of property and to do whatever they choose to do. Again, these are their homes. These are their belongings. They have the right to do with them as they wish, and that right cannot be infringed in any way. Whether it's a permanent right of return to live there or simply a short-term right to dispense with property or to collect personal belongings, that right must be respected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your Excellency, I believe you used the word "pretext" to justify Azerbaijan's decision to withdraw from a meeting to negotiate a peace treaty. I think that should make us question whether Azerbaijan is truly willing to achieve lasting peace in the region.

Also, I find it somewhat peculiar that France is being singled out in this way, as it has been Armenia's only true supporter in recent months, raising the issue at the UN Security Council, establishing a diplomatic mission in what would be the corridor between Azerbaijan and Nakhchivan, and then offering Armenia weapons, so as to restore a certain balance and deter any further intervention on the part of Azerbaijan, which might be encouraged by its latest military successes. The latter, may I remind you, were made possible by Canadian technology used in the Bayraktar drones that Turkey supplied to Azerbaijan without even informing Canada.

I shall digress no longer and return to the political position of the current Armenian government.

Your Excellency, as you know, Prime Minister Nikol Pachinian's government is under enormous pressure. In response to my colleague Mr. Aboultaif, you spoke of disinformation. I think there are a considerable number of disinformation campaigns aimed at destabilizing Prime Minister Pachinian's government.

Can you comment on that?

[Andrew Turner]

None of my comments were intended to criticize France. It was merely an example. Azerbaijan has also tried to criticize the European Union mission, saying that Canada's possible participation would make it a kind of NATO mission. So, we will indeed need to have an opportunity to observe the actions of the government in Baku and ascertain whether it is serious about negotiating a peace agreement.

In response to the question, I have to say that we're seeing a great deal of disinformation targeting Nikol Pachinian's government, that much is certain. The creation of a true democracy in a territory so close to Russia, in a territory belonging to a former member of the Soviet Union, is a nightmare for Russia. In fact, this is among the reasons underlying Russia's military operations against Ukraine and, before that, against Georgia.

So, it's incredibly important that Armenia have the opportunity to continue developing its democratic system. That was partly the basis of Special Envoy Mr. Dion's report, and it's certainly something that the Canadian embassy and government will be pursuing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We'll now go to MP McPherson for two and a half minutes. This is the last question.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again thank you, Ambassador, for being here today.

Ambassador, on social media Bob Rae, Canada's ambassador and permanent representative to the United Nations in New York, described the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh as a complete failure of global diplomacy in the face of ethnic cleansing. Does the Government of Canada believe that ethnic cleansing has been carried out in the Nagorno-Karabakh region?

[Andrew Turner]

My colleagues from our international law bureau would be quick to state that there is no precise definition of ethnic cleansing under international law, although it can constitute an element or an aspect of crimes against humanity or war crimes. Such a determination would need to be made by an authorized legal body, given that there are very precise definitions for those crimes.

What is crystal clear, though, is that we have seen the 10-month blockade and the use of military force, and we have seen the population forced to flee because of their legitimate fear for their lives and security. Therefore, it is absolutely imperative that their right to return and their right to enjoy their property be respected.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Of course, and that's to return in a safe manner.

[Andrew Turner]

Indeed, yes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I also have a question about the opposition parties in Armenia, and I'd like to get your perspective.

We know that the complete takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh in September sparked large demonstrations in Armenia's capital. Some protesters were calling on the Armenian Prime Minister to resign because of his perceived failures.

Can you talk a little bit about how the opposition parties are reacting to the events of September?

[Andrew Turner]

The opposition has indeed been very critical of Prime Minister Pashinyan for several years. Again, it's been very critical going back to the 2020 conflict.

However, the government was not only successfully re-elected in 2021 on the basis of its commitment to democracy and reform, but it is also generally perceived as having done very well in responding to the humanitarian crisis in providing shelter. As a result, we're not yet seeing sustained mass demonstrations.

There were protests in the initial aftermath, but they have not yet been sustained to a significant degree. While there continues to be opposition, it is being expressed through debate in Parliament rather than through large street demonstrations.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Your Excellency.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

At this point, it now being one minute before noon, I will thank Ambassador Turner for having made himself available to us. I'd also like to thank Mr. Sinclair. We're very grateful for your time and your expertise.

We will suspend for approximately five minutes to allow the second roster of panellists to appear before us.

Go ahead, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I just have one question, Chair.

Were His Excellency and Global Affairs Canada officials offered the opportunity to appear for the full Committee meeting, which was two hours, and did they express any reservations about that?