Evidence of meeting #79 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nagorno-karabakh.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. Ratelle, you talked about war crimes in the historic sites, the heritage sites. How do you see Canada's role in regard to documenting possible war crimes and then seeing possible justice in those war crimes brought forward?
12:30 p.m.
University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think Canada has a huge role to play in the idea of universal jurisdiction with regard to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and potentially crimes of genocide by documenting crimes and being an acting partner within the International Criminal Court.
As I mentioned, if Armenia finally ratified their own statute, there will be room under the ICC to bring forward a case for Nagomo-Karabakh to the ICC with a referral from Canada. I think Canada has many roles that can be played at several levels.
I can add also that if any individual responsible for this potential ethnic cleansing travelled to Canada, there could be also prosecution for crimes against humanity within Canada.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I just have a little bit of time. Do you see the Canadian government actually doing that?
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Mr. Hoback, I'm afraid you're out of time. Thank you, Mr. Ratelle.
We have MP Alghabra for five minutes, please.
October 30th, 2023 / 12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today, and those of you who are online.
For the benefit of the committee, I'd like your insight on what our allies are doing in response, namely the U.S. and Europeans. Can you share with the committee some of the reactions and some of the plans that the U.S. or the Europeans are discussing in reaction to what has happened?
I'm directing it to all four of you. Those of you who may have more information, please contribute to the question.
12:30 p.m.
University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In a nutshell, I think for the moment we have to be honest that many of the western partners are not doing as much as they should with regard to applying international law and reacting to the violation of international law, as well as imposing sanctions or even providing safety and security measures for the local Nagomo-Karabakh population as well as Armenia, in the southern situation that we were all discussing before.
12:30 p.m.
Professor, As an Individual
Yes, I would agree. You haven't seen anything beyond blanket condemnations, but there are no targeted actions, with the exception of France, which has offered to sell arms to Armenia, but even then it has not imposed sanctions.
I do think there is a realization of the potential ethnic cleansing— again, that is a definitional term. Not only has Azerbaijan chased out over 100,000 Armenians and made it almost impossible for them to return, but it also has territorial ambitions. This is why I think we have to look at Turkey or Iran. Unfortunately, these are the countries that have an interest in dealing with things. I don't think our western partners right now have an interest themselves in doing much, but we can work with these countries, as difficult as it may be to try to come up with a peaceful solution for the region.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Mr. Waters, I'll come to you by adding to that question. Why do you think that is? Why do you think the response from the U.S. and the EU as governments has not been as strong as some of you experts here are advocating it should be?
12:35 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Windsor, As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, I think it is important to point out that France has taken robust measures, albeit not sanctions, and not only in terms of arms sales. For example, France has dispatched a military attaché to its embassy in Yerevan, stepping up defence co-operation in some significant ways.
I mentioned, on the European Union side, that the Parliament has overwhelmingly endorsed a call for sanctions. That hasn't filtered down to the executive level, although there has been condemnation at the executive level. The President of the European Council, the President of France and Chancellor of Germany, in a joint statement, have all indicated unwavering support for the independent sovereignty and territorial integrity of Armenia. That hasn't translated into sanctions yet, and in large measure that's because the European Union views Azerbaijan as a reliable source of gas.
However, Canada doesn't have to rely on Azerbaijan, and that's why I think Canada could play a leadership role here, galvanizing support as well among other parliamentarians around the world, including the at least 100 members of Congress who have also called for sanctions.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Mr. Waters, can you help us understand why you think the Europeans or the U.S., as governments, are not acting as many of the advocates have been asking for?
12:35 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Windsor, As an Individual
In the European Union's case, it's because Azerbaijan is seen as a reliable alternative for gas.
To be honest, I am not naive to the geopolitical realities with respect to the politics of not only Turkey but also Iran being major players in the region, and whose co-operation will ultimately be needed to have a sustained peace. I very much get the geopolitics of it. I nonetheless think that this is a chance for Canada to offer moral leadership, and that would be leadership in conjunction with fellow parliamentarians around the world.
To be clear, when I say “targeted sanctions”, Canada is not in a position to make a serious economic dent in Azerbaijan's GDP. For example, the Canadian Space Agency decided this year not to participate in the 2023 International Astronautical Congress in Azerbaijan, citing concerns over the humanitarian crisis. These kinds of things are symbolic, but they send a signal to Baku and to our allies that there will be consequences for breaching international law.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you.
We will next go to MP Bergeron. You have five minutes, sir.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I believe Ms. Vartanyan has her hand raised. I don't know how you're going to handle that, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Mr. Waters and Mr. Sahadeo, but I invite Ms. Vartanyan to respond in writing and Mr. Ratelle to add comments.
It's important to understand how isolated Armenia is right now. On one hand, it was abandoned by its Russian ally and, on the other, it was met with indifference from the international community, most notably Western countries, for a host of reasons. We watched passively as the Latchine corridor was closed and its population literally starved. We passively witnessed Azerbaijani incursions into Armenian territory. We passively witnessed the invasion of Nagorno-Karabakh and the flight of over 100,000 people. As has been said, one of the reasons for this was Azerbaijan's strategic importance, given the European Union's oil supply difficulties. The fact that there is a security agreement with Russia is even cited as a reason for not wanting to go further in supporting Armenia. Armenia is therefore in the worst situation of all, since it can't count on anyone's support except France's.
Is such an attitude on the part of the international community, and more particularly on the part of Western countries, in line with the message sent out by Presidents Biden and Zelensky at the last UN General Assembly, i.e., if we let this kind of thing happen, there will be further occurrences?
12:40 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Windsor, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I think the member is right to point out....
I beg your pardon. Is this addressed to me, Mr. Chair?
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
12:40 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Windsor, As an Individual
Thank you.
I think that's right: Armenia is in a tough geopolitical situation. Frankly, it has been for the entirety of its history, certainly in the 19th and 20th centuries. There's nothing new about that.
In fairness, Canada has stepped up in some really important ways. I think we simply need to take this to the next level and continue to exercise moral leadership here—again, with our like-minded allies—but I would suggest again that for a committee of parliamentarians, our like-mindeds include those in the European Parliament and in Congress in calling for our executives to do the right thing and to take some bold actions.
I think there is a degree of inconsistency. The geopolitics, of course, matter, but I think it's a case of acting now to help ensure a tangible and lasting peace. For example, there is a proposal for a “Crossroads of Peace” initiative, which would unblock regional transportation links in the region. By all means, we should be supporting that, and so should our allies, but unless we're willing to say that at some point that there will be a tangible response to territorial incursions or breaches of international law, any peace agreement that's concluded won't be worth the paper it's written on.
Thank you.
12:40 p.m.
Professor, As an Individual
I'd agree with Mr. Waters, and I'd agree with your question that without a strong response, I think we see Azerbaijan easily grasping the idea that they could take the southern parts of Armenia. I don't think Azerbaijan would do so alone. This is why I mentioned Turkey in my remarks. The Azerbaijani military is stronger than Armenia's, but it's not especially strong.
I don't think they would take that route, so there is a role now for strong international action. You could see a scenario in which you could strengthen the European Union presence on the ground if the western countries had the will to do so. They don't right now. To be frank, their interests are diverted to the situation in the Middle East.
We can see perhaps a role for Canadian leadership, but I don't see dragging other countries along to the point where we could actually make a difference on the ground militarily. Working with these countries—like Turkey especially, a NATO ally—would probably be the best way to do it, to try to form this plan that Mr. Waters just talked about, this Crossroads of Peace plan, so that we can unblock regional corridors and maybe even give some kind of corridor that allows Turkey and Azerbaijan to claim some kind of control over a very small section of it. Of course, that would not do [Inaudible—Editor]
12:40 p.m.
Professor, As an Individual
[Inaudible—Editor] in a way that it's an Armenian ally, so there is a role—
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Professor Sahadeo, I'm sorry. We're out of time for this question.
We next go to MP McPherson. You have five minutes.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Vartanyan, I'm so sorry that you're not able to speak at the meeting. This is very disappointing. You're one of the witnesses we had most wanted to hear from, of course, so I am going to ask a couple of questions. I know you can't respond, but if you'd be so kind as to provide any of your insight in writing to the committee so that it could be included in our report, that would be very helpful.
First of all, I'd like to ask about how international organizations like the UN Refugee Agency and the ICRC are supporting those who have fled. I'd like to get a bit more insight into the current humanitarian conditions in the territory. If you could provide some writing on that, that would be fantastic.
For the other witnesses we have today, I was very interested in what Mr. Ratelle mentioned with regard to the ICC. I would be interested in getting a bit of understanding, so I'm going to put this question to all witnesses.
Perhaps I could start with you, Mr. Ratelle, and then go on to the next ones. Could you walk us through some of the different legal options and possibilities and what Canada should be pushing for or supporting in terms of justice for ethnic Armenians? We did talk about the ICC, but are there other options that we could be pursuing separately or in conjunction with the ICC and pushing for ICC justice?
Mr. Ratelle, can I start with you, please?
12:45 p.m.
University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, thank you very much.
I think that for the moment, the ICC represents probably the best legal mechanism on the table. Obviously, Armenia has not ratified, for the moment, the Rome Statute. However, at the moment when Armenia would ratify the Rome Statute, the condition in which the refugees are living in Armenia could be considered, in a way, another crime against humanity linked to the potential ethnic cleansing.
We have seen such a strategy used by the ICC with regard to ethnic cleansing and, potentially, genocide in Myanmar. Myanmar did not ratify its own statute, but Bangladesh did, so living conditions of refugees living in Bangladesh—Rohingya refugees and others who were displaced—could be assimilated to a crime against humanity committed by the Myanmar government.
With such a strategy, it would be possible for Canada to refer the case to the ICC the moment the Rome Statute is ratified, and we can add that in the case of a war of aggression, although it would be difficult to refer the case because Azerbaijan did not ratify the Rome Statute. There could be at least legal measures connected to the International Court of Justice, as well as potentially an ad hoc tribunal that could be created by the Security Council or by other legal assemblies in Europe or in Canada or with regard to the General Assembly of the UN.