Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Andrew Turner]

Given the over 30 years of conflict, a great deal of information is unclear as to the precise borders between the two countries. This is one of the reasons for wanting to reach a permanent peace agreement. That would settle all these issues, including the protection of homes as well as cultural property and sites.

Canada supports these efforts both through negotiations and in such forums as UNESCO.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Next we go to MP McPherson. You have six minutes, and the floor is yours.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Your Excellency, for being here today. It's very important that we get this testimony from you, and it's exciting to know that you are there on the ground and that the embassy is open.

My colleague Mr. Bergeron asked about sanctions, and I have a very similar question for you.

On September 22, I wrote to Minister Joly, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, asking for an immediate imposition of targeted sanctions on Azerbaijani individuals and entities that have been responsible for violations of international law and human rights abuses. I haven't heard back from her.

I'm curious. You say sanctions are on the table. You said to my colleague that sanctions are something that the government is considering. Knowing what happened just over a month ago, at what point would Canada seriously consider them as being one of the tools they would use?

[Andrew Turner]

The minister has been very clear that sanctions are.... Again, all options are on the table, and they are being considered. The issue in terms of imposing sanctions is that Canada tends to find it most effective to impose sanctions in partnership with our like-minded allies. There need to be discussions to see where our allies are in regard to this.

Again, as recently as earlier today, the Prime Minister of Armenia reiterated that there are currently ongoing active discussions to move forward with a peace process with Azerbaijan, and so there is also a question of whether this would be the appropriate time for sanctions with such discussions ongoing. This is an issue that's being debated within Armenia. We saw that happening even during the discussions when the minister was here. This was one of many questions on which the exact timing is being debated.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes. However, we did see the Azerbaijani launch an offensive. On September 19, over 200 people were killed. There was, as we've said, the mass displacement of over 100,000 ethnic Armenians.

It seems as though those discussions that Canada should be having with its like-minded partners should have already started. Have those discussions not been happening? It does seem difficult that there is a peace process happening after 100,000 Armenians have had to flee their homes.

I guess my question is whether the sanctions discussions have been happening with our like-minded allies. How confident are you that Azerbaijan is coming to this peace process in good faith?

[Andrew Turner]

Mr. Chair, there absolutely have been discussions with our like-minded allies. As I've indicated, there is simply continued debate about when it would be most appropriate to use that sanctions tool.

In terms of the impact of the displacement, Canada has been very clear in condemning Azerbaijan's blockade, in calling for the reopening of the corridor and in condemning the military action on the 19th. Canada has been making it absolutely clear that the right of the displaced population to return to their homes must be absolutely respected.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Obviously we would want justice to be applied for the crimes that have been committed. We would want to use the international tools we have at our disposal.

Has Canada had any conversations about that? Would Canada be calling for international legal mechanisms to be used at this time?

[Andrew Turner]

Canada has certainly been engaged in discussions. As with sanctions, though, this is also an issue on which we are seeing some debate within Armenia as to when the most appropriate time to engage in that type of activity would be.

As long as there is a sense from the government that the peace process is something that can be pursued, we would not want to do anything that would disrupt those efforts.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I think you mentioned that since September 28, Canada has committed $3.9 million for humanitarian assistance funding in response to this crisis.

We know that the funding has been allocated to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and the International Committee of the Red Cross. Can you tell me how much of that funding has been delivered and how exactly this funding is being used?

[Andrew Turner]

Mr. Chair, I'm not certain how much has been delivered yet. We can follow up to confirm that.

Again, Canada's traditional model is to provide it directly to the agency—in this case, the UNHCR and ICRC—and allow them to use it as they determine is most required to respond to the needs on the ground.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It would be great if you could possibly give us the amount that has been delivered to date. That would helpful. Thank you.

For my final question, I just want to get a little bit of clarity on some of the comments that we've heard from Minister Joly. She said, “Canada supports a negotiated political solution to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict as well as the continuation of dialogue between the parties towards promoting confidence-building measures”.

From your perspective and from Canada's perspective, what type of negotiated settlement would be necessary for ensuring peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan?

[Andrew Turner]

The exact provisions would obviously need to be resolved between the two states.

However, the broad issues that are being looked at are some of the key principles that have been outlined for decades, in some cases, but certainly have been reiterated in recent statements, including in Granada. These are about mutual recognition of each other's sovereignty and territorial integrity, self-determination and the non-use of force.

Part of the process would clearly need to be agreements on a process for delimiting the border between the two countries as well as resolving the resulting territorial disputes around the exact nature of where the border is.

There would likewise need to be efforts to come up with a mechanism to address claims of compensation for the losses suffered by victims, most likely going back all the way to the 1990s conflicts, up until and including what we have seen in recent weeks.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

We next go to MP Chong. You have five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ambassador Turner, I am wondering if you could tell us what you know of the status of the 20,000-some ethnic Armenians that were left behind in Nagorno-Karabakh.

[Andrew Turner]

According to the reports from the UN mission that was allowed to enter the territory—for the first time in a couple of decades—as well as humanitarian organizations, the reports are that virtually all of the ethnic Armenian population has left.

Again, the UN reported at one point finding no more than 50 people. The largest estimates I have seen are still under 100 people. The vast majority, and effectively the totality of the population, are believed now to have crossed into Armenia.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that clarification.

When you refer to “80%” of people, you're referring to 80% of those 120,000 that are being housed in Armenia proper.

[Andrew Turner]

Yes. The vast majority of the population are being housed in Armenia.

There are estimates of a few thousand that have left Armenia to go elsewhere—Russia or other countries—where they would have familial ties and rights of residence, but the Government of Armenia has been very clear that their goal is to ensure that everyone who wishes to has the ability to return to Nagorno-Karabakh, and anyone who does not choose to exercise that right, would have opportunities to remain in Armenia proper.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Just to clarify, where are the majority of the 120,000 ethnic Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh? About 100,000 are being housed in Armenia. Several thousand are abroad. Where are the balance?

[Andrew Turner]

Again, the balance are believed to be in Armenia and are in the process of being housed. It's simply a matter of some of the estimates and figures being updated as the UN gets more information from the government.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The so-called president of Nagorno-Karabakh's de facto government signed a decree in late September or early October dissolving all of the institutions of that separatist government. Does that signal that the 120,000 ethnic Armenians have no intention of returning to Nagorno-Karabakh?

[Andrew Turner]

From the discussions that we had directly with some of the refugees during Minister Joly's visit, there would be a strong desire from people to return if they felt that they could do so in safety.

At the current time, given everything that has gone on, they are not convinced that will be possible; however, as such, the majority of people are working on the expectation of staying in Armenia rather than being able to return in the near future.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Sure—understood.

Both Armenia and Azerbaijan have indicated in recent weeks and recent months a great deal of optimism about a negotiated peace treaty between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Maybe you could talk a bit about how important that is, and how much of a barrier that a negotiated peace treaty will face in light of the right of return of the 120,000 ethnic Armenians.

[Andrew Turner]

Mr. Chair, thus far there has not been any indication or statement from Azerbaijan that they would be opposed to the right of return. They have set up mechanisms by which the population can register to receive services under the Government of Azerbaijan. The issue is much more likely to be the lack of trust and fear for safety that has built up over the last several decades of hostility and the most recent events as well.

There is also the question of displaced populations from the 1990s conflicts of Azerbaijan. This will also be very much part of the issues that will need to be resolved in a peace agreement.