Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Weldon Epp]

To be fair, I cannot possibly speculate on the calculus that went into taking that dramatic decision on the part of India.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I'm asking based on your observations, I guess.

[Weldon Epp]

I would just repeat my observation that it's highly unusual. There are tools to address concerns about specific individual diplomats posted abroad, PNG, persona non grata. That's not what the Indian government chose to do. They did not, for example, name specific Canadian diplomats and say that they would like to kick this diplomat out of the country. They unilaterally resized our mission in Delhi.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Do you think the current situation has affected our relationships with our allies as well as with other countries?

[Weldon Epp]

I wouldn't want to speculate. What I would say is that we continue to have close partnerships with our like-minded allies as well as with partners around the world who understand that this is a unique situation and, I think, are understanding of the manner in which the Canadian government has responded to unexpected developments.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

You represent the department where basically you have this history together. As I said, as an observer you have the knowledge and the ideas. We would value your opinion on this. I think it's very important for the committee to know how this incident has affected our relationships. I mentioned our allies as well as other countries.

[Weldon Epp]

I would simply observe that we continue to have very close discussions with our allies about some of the very difficult issues these incidents have brought to foreign ministries. Minister Joly has intensively engaged her colleagues, and not just allied colleagues but diverse colleagues from around the world, to understand their perspectives, to share Canada's views, to share our position and to, at the bottom of it, underscore the government's position, which is that while these are allegations, they're quite serious and it will be important to work together to allow justice to take its course.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Is it normal practice in situations like this for a prime minister to bring this whole situation to the House of Commons all of a sudden, without trying to find other ways to reveal what we have or to, at least, express it in a different way?

[Weldon Epp]

There is no way I can answer that. This was entirely unprecedented in nature. I wouldn't compare it to any other previous episode in diplomatic history for Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We now go to MP Alghabra for four minutes.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and for your service to Canada.

I do want to make a comment first. I find it quite surprising that the Conservatives keep talking about the point of the utility of the House of Commons, given how much the issue of China comes up in the House of Commons every day—and rightly so. Our constituents expect us to have these vigorous debates in the House of Commons, whether it's China, India, the United States or any other country, for that matter. I just wanted to make that known for the record.

Mr. Epp, as you alluded to in your opening remarks, the relationship between India and Canada is extremely important for Canada. I would argue that it's extremely important for India. Almost two million Canadians of Indian background have affection and familial ties. Thousands of businesses are either doing business in India or are interested in doing business in India. The growth potential that the Indo-Pacific strategy lays out is extremely promising.

However, this question is one that I know most of my colleagues' questions and your remarks have been trying to deal with: How do you navigate the desire and the interest in having a strong diplomatic and economic relationship but at the same time ensure that we have the ability to have our domestic debates on what Canadians expect their government to stand up for, internationally and domestically, on human rights and values? How do we navigate that?

I know that sometimes the advice is on whether or not we can do it privately. Yes, it needs to be done privately, but sometimes it also needs to be done publicly. Canadians need to have faith that their government is promoting their values and their interests. How do we navigate that?

[Weldon Epp]

I think the Government of Canada, Global Affairs Canada, believes there is a time and a place for both private diplomacy and public comment. As the members of the committee are aware, private diplomacy was under way before it became known that there would be a media story and before the Prime Minister made his statement in the House. Private diplomacy had its use.

It's also the case, and Minister Joly has been clear on this as well, that most often diplomacy is most successful when it takes place in private conversations as opposed to in a noisy public domain. However, it's important for Canadians to know how the Government of Canada is protecting their security, including, in a situation like this, the security of all Canadians within Canada regardless of their backgrounds, how we're defending our sovereignty and how we're managing an incredibly important relationship that will continue to be important, as the member said, for both Canada and India.

For the Government of Canada and for Global Affairs Canada, both can be true at the same time. We'll continue to look for opportunities to remain in dialogue with the Indian government, even as the investigation and next steps, in terms of co-operation on getting to the bottom of the Nijjar murder, will potentially take some time.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Am I done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have 10 seconds.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Again, speaking in the House of Commons, not only to members of Parliament but to all of Canada, is an important channel for Canadian leaders to share with Canadians what we are doing to protect Canadians and to protect the interests of Canada.

I don't expect an answer. I had 10 seconds, so I wanted to make that statement.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, MP Alghabra.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron. You have two minutes, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I'll focus on the impact of the expulsion of 41 diplomats. According to the High Commissioner of India to Canada, it was an act of reciprocity.

My question is quite simple. Is it normal, in the diplomatic world, to ensure an equal number of diplomats on both sides? Otherwise, what is the basis for the reciprocity claim made by the High Commissioner of India?

[Weldon Epp]

Thank you for the question.

It's important to go back to these principles and the basis for managing diplomatic relations, which is the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. In short, that convention uses the term “parity” nowhere, and that term was the basis on which the Indian government explained its expulsion of 41 diplomats.

It is the case that the VCDR, as it's known, provides for host states to place limits on the number of diplomats a sending state will have posted, but that requires consultations and has to take into account both the needs of the host state and the conditions of the sending state. Therefore, the idea of some kind of pure, literal parity or pure reciprocity in numbers simply doesn't exist in the Vienna convention. That word doesn't exist, and there's no agreed definition of that in the international law.

We reject the Indian government's position in this regard, and we have been quite clear on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to MP McPherson. You have two minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to make a comment, following up on my colleague Mr. Alghabra's comments on the Conservative's participation. I recognize that they didn't think it was appropriate for the Prime Minister to bring it up in the House, but on the other hand, I didn't find it particularly appropriate that, when we had a debate in the House of Commons, they did not participate at all in that take-note debate on the tragic death and murder of Mr. Nijjar. I want to make that point as well.

I want to ask a few questions about the foreign interference inquiry process, if I can. We have seen the Uyghur representation pull out of that process. They are worried about whether or not it will be fair and transparent.

What efforts are being made to ensure transparency in the process, especially regarding the disclosure of evidence to the public?

[Weldon Epp]

Mr. Chair, I want to get to this quickly so I don't waste the member's time. I'm not in a position to comment on the specifics of the inquiry and its terms of reference. It's under way, and I will leave items that should come before the inquiry to the inquiry.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

One last question I have for you goes back to the issue of the Indo-Pacific strategy, as we look at the human rights issues we see coming out of India. The question I was going to ask in the last section is how we justify taking our eggs from one basket, where we're quite concerned about human rights, and putting them into another basket, where, of course, human rights should be a deep concern as well.

From my perspective, I have a lot of challenges. The government is doing quiet diplomacy. Perhaps there's some open diplomacy, but this is a country that, conceivably, has allegedly killed a Canadian citizen. Democracy or not, having that relationship seems very fraught to me, and I don't understand how we balance that with just being quiet.

I have a bit of trouble with that, and I would love your insight on that, Mr. Epp.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Epp, again, we're over time, so if you could keep your response to less than 10 seconds, that would be great.

[Weldon Epp]

Mr. Chair, I'll be very quick.

The question has a reasonable premise. I believe that the government's decision, for example, to pause free trade negotiations with India reflects the premise that, given the serious nature of the allegations, it's not currently “business as usual”. However, we do have an important long-term, strategic relationship with India, and Canadians and Indians do as well.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.