Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2008

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a question, though. Kent Kirkpatrick.... I'm not up to the latest in city politics.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

He's the city manager.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I know. Was Kent Kirkpatrick also the city manager prior to Larry O'Brien's term?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Yes, he was.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Okay.

Well, I continue to have concerns about this and the direction this is going. As I said, the Ethics Commissioner has clearly said this is an issue that didn't even warrant an investigation, that we don't need to look into this. I can tell you that if this turns into a gong show and we see the usual behaviour we've seen and people start getting attacked, this committee will get hijacked very quickly.

Madam Chair, I would remind you that we have already passed numerous motions to have Passport Canada come before this committee. That's an important one. We're heading into summer travel season and people are applying for their passports. Last summer all members of Parliament got a lot of correspondence from constituents who were frustrated.

We've asked Revenue Canada to come before the committee. We've also asked to look at the federal government's real estate plan again. We have the executive director of Heritage Canada coming before the committee. I think it was Madame Bourgeois, or maybe it was Madame Faille, who made the correct point that we need to understand the importance of heritage buildings in any kind of government procurement. We've already had that come before this committee. Also, we want Public Sector Integrity Canada to come before the committee, to discuss issues that are important there.

We also have a number of days blocked off to deal with the whole issue of the Public Appointments Commission and the entire issue of Linda Keen and Gary Lunn. We've seen that raised in the House of Common in question period, and in the media. We've had that raised a number of times.

I think it's important that this committee's good work not get sidetracked by this. Madam Chair, I hope you would impress upon committee members and the clerk the importance....

We've already had votes in this committee on a number of motions. I have the list of motions here. I won't go through it. We also have BMO and RBC and those groups to come before the committee, who haven't quite confirmed yet. We want to have them.

We have to respect the democracy of this committee. We've taken a number of votes on a number of important issues. We have a lot of work to come before this committee. This is obviously a fishing expedition. We know why this is coming before the committee. There's no honest intent here, other than the immediate politics of it. This is purely a game.

We have a lot of good work to come before this committee. I would caution members that in voting for this motion a lot of good work that this committee has already committed to could very well be sidetracked. I don't think that's at all helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Mr. Warkentin, followed by Mr. Kramp.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

From looking around the table and the indications from other committee members, I suspect this motion will go forward. If there are questions that need to be answered, let's have them answered.

Madam Chair, I'm wondering if you can provide us with some details. I think there are concerns, on both sides of the table, that nobody's good name gets dragged into the mud through these processes.

The Ethics Commissioner has already ruled on this. The OPP have made their determination on this. Anybodywho has looked into this from the outside has made the determination that this is a closed case. But obviously we're going to have the opportunity to see some more people. I'm wondering if you or the clerk could provide us with details as to whether there's anything we should be aware of to ensure that people's good names aren't raked through the mud and whether there are provisions you're willing to undertake to ensure that doesn't happen, so as my colleagues have talked about, this committee doesn't turn into a three-ring circus.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

As the chair, I can do my best to try to keep people on topic, but there are times when people will say things I can't control.

I don't know if the clerk wants to wade in on this.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Essentially, if there are questions in terms of a contract having been.... Again, I'm not an expert on Ottawa politics, but my understanding is there may be some dispute between the City of Ottawa and Siemens Canada, the contractor, in terms of the contract and moving forward. Are there any legal provisions that need to be respected or considered as we move forward on this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I would think the City of Ottawa may tell us they can't respond to certain questions if it is under legal review, but I can't tell you that because I don't know. I am not that familiar with what's going on in Ottawa.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

And we do have the prerogative in the middle of the meeting to have that in camera?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

If that's the case, yes.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Is there something you are able to...?

[The Clerk]

There has been some discussion lately about the sub judice aspect of things, and there is no fixed decision on that.

The usual provision would be to be careful, but some scholars would propose that the rule does not restrict members from getting into those matters with some caution. But there is no fixed answer as to how far one can go on that matter.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

If this committee does go forward with the decisions--and obviously it wouldn't be for some time--and if we do decide to go into this process, I wonder if the clerk could provide a briefing for those who aren't familiar with the details surrounding Ottawa and its decision to build or not build whatever they're building and also maybe a briefing regarding the legal disputes that might be ongoing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We'd have to ask our researcher to look into that. It would be more his responsibility to do the preliminary work to find out more of what's been going on with this particular issue and to brief us.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

And in collaboration with the House legal team, would we be able to get a clarification on the legal matters that Ottawa and Siemens may be involved in?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We can always ask the House legal team to come forward if there are any issues, as we've done in the past.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I don't even know. I just recall that at one point there was a threat of a lawsuit. I don't even know if anybody can--

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I have no idea myself whether there is a lawsuit now.

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have two quick little points. Obviously, the public accountscommittee has already taken a look at this situation, and in their collective wisdom and to the credit of the purpose of their committee they do not wish to be an accessory to the degradation of their committee responsibilities and their committee purpose.

But what I'm really deeply concerned about is just what exactly happened in this committee a short while ago. Under the rule of parliamentary protection, Mr. Holland made a slanderous statement and has already made allegations of impropriety against a minister right here in this committee. This is a harbinger of where this committee is going to go with this issue if we allow unfettered political partisan games to rule this committee rather than looking after the serious governmental responsibilities we have.

Here we are just discussing the issue, and already the slander starts. I say to myself, if this is where this committee wishes to go with this issue, then I'm going to find it embarrassing, and I certainly expect it will be for many other committee members before we end up at the destination this little path is going to take us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Brown, you are the final speaker.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Holland mentioned at the beginning that when he brought this forward at the public accounts committee, it was suggested that wasn't the appropriate committee and that this was. I assume that was received in writing. If it was in the minutes of the public accounts committee I think it would be helpful if Mr. Holland could pass that on to us before we vote on this, because it does seem beyond the scope of this committee. If we're making that statement on behalf of the clerk of another committee, I'd like to see the clerk's statement to that effect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I'm told it was just a conversation with the clerk of the public accounts committee.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

The challenge is that we're saying what the other clerk said. We're dictating what his conversation is, and there's no evidence of that.