Evidence of meeting #26 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Ms. Faille, if you wish to speak later you will have more time. Or would you rather speak now?
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you. This has been a fascinating morning.
I'd like to follow up on a comment my colleague Mr. Brown made about the MPs' hotline. I think it's fairly straightforward to point out that at times, like now, when we're seeing very, very good responses in terms of what's happening with Passport Canada, the need for the member of Parliament to call in is not happening. I don't have to worry or pay too much attention to the passports that are going through my office, as we're having great turn-around times. However, there are other periods, like right after Christmas break, when everyone starts banging on our office doors because people are all going to Cuba, and your staff is working night shifts. That's when we do tend to call the MP hotline, because we have problems about a passport that was lost in transmission, or perhaps a mistake was made at either end. Many times we've had problems with mistakes made at Passport Canada, so it has backed up.
My staff traditionally would call, and then if there's a problem they'd ask me to call. When I would normally call the MPs' hotline, I would speak to someone and they would look into it and get back to me. More often than not now, I get an answering machine. And for a while they would call me back, but I find there are certain times when I don't get a call back. I find when I call the MPs' hotline I'm talking to different managers all the time.
I was raising questions about the turnover rate because for a good period of time I could always deal with the same person. Now, when I go to call Serge or whoever, they're gone and it's somebody else, so what about that file? Then I have to call three days later and I'm talking to somebody else.
That's my big concern. If I'm calling as a member of Parliament, it's because it's an extraordinary situation. I don't call about a passport because I have nothing else to do. It's an extraordinary situation and I'm calling the members' line to get a clear answer, and at that point I really need an answer. When I don't get an answer, that's when I get frustrated.
What is the standard practice with the MPs' hotline? Are your staff obligated to call back, to follow up, to keep track, so that if they leave the next day and someone new comes in, there's actually a record so we can keep working on the same page of tracking a problem passport?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Operations Bureau, Passport Canada
Unfortunately, we've recently had a little blip in the MPs' service. The long-standing manager who had been with Passport Canada for a couple of years has left Passport Canada and we're staffing a new manager in there. There are acting managers who are more junior, but there is a process going on to staff that position permanently, so within the next few weeks you should see it rectified.
I'll go back and discuss it with them. We have had a change there, and a manager who has been with Passport Canada and in that service for a long period of time has left, so there's a bit of a blip right now. I think that's really the issue.
In terms of busy seasons, this year was significantly better than last. We have moved to the new facility. The MP unit has doubled in size, and I don't expect there will be any service delays this coming busy season, as you've experienced in the past.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
That's excellent. That's what I wanted to know. Thank you very much.
10:35 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for coming in this morning and answering many of our questions. When you bring passport folks in front of us we'll have millions of questions with regard to passport issues.
What we did want to talk to you a bit about is with regard to the turnover rate in the civil service and your experience in that area. I'm wondering if Passport Canada has ever undertaken an analysis of the cost of an employee who comes in, and then the replacement costs. I wonder if you could fill us in as to what analysis you've done in that area, and, if you've done it, what your analysis has led you to understand.
10:40 a.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Operations Bureau, Passport Canada
We've done some analysis and we have notional ideas. I don't want to give specific numbers right now because they may be incorrect, but we can provide those to you.
There's a huge cost. It takes six months to staff a passport officer position using the processes that are in place for the public service right now. We've had enormous support from the Public Service Commission through this period of massive hiring to try to expedite that process, and we're working with them on new tools to make that a better system for us.
The Public Service Modernization Act makes staffing a long, slow process. Passport officers have to be hired nationally; they cannot be hired regionally any longer. Before, if you needed somebody in Saguenay, you'd open a competition in Saguenay and see who applied. Now, if you need somebody in Saguenay, you have to open it out of Ottawa and anybody who lives anywhere in the country can apply, so you get thousands of applications for essentially one opening. This makes staffing long and expensive.
We're using a third methodology to promote from within and try to give people career paths within the organization, but there still needs to be an influx of new people, so that slows it down. It is only in the last year that we've had that specific problem.
Our training process is four weeks in the classroom and ten weeks of apprenticeship to ensure the person is qualified. The classroom work is in class in regional centres and we fly people in to them. That's a huge cost.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I wonder if you could provide us with the numbers with regard to that. I'm just curious about that file.
I did understand from your testimony, and I wonder if you could give some clarity to it, that what Passport Canada is paying is something less than what Service Canada would pay for the same job or the same work being accomplished. What is the cost differential, and what is either Passport Canada or Service Canada doing to rectify it?
My concern is that if we're seeing that type of cost—and you'll give us those numbers—and we're not doing anything to rectify the responsibility of Passport Canada essentially training employees for another department.... I guess it depends what the cost differential is, but if there's a huge cost in training these people, could we not just raise that pay on Passport Canada's side to see fewer people moving, and maybe be at a wash in terms of the final cost?
10:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer , Executive Office, Passport Canada
Before Ms. Thomas provides you with a bit more detail, one thing that to a certain extent is a consolation, if I may use that term with regard to turnover, is that most of the people we hire and train, when they move on, go to Service Canada or CBSA and perform more or less the same function. So the training is not lost. In fact, that's why our people are very interesting to those organizations. They bring those skills with them and the training is very thorough.
Basically, they're good employees as they move on. So that's very positive for the receiving organization.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Have you done any exit interviews with those folks who are moving on to another department? Can I get a handle on whether in fact they're moving as a result of the pay increase or actually with the potential of being able to move up into different positions?
10:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer , Executive Office, Passport Canada
Some of them are.
10:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer , Executive Office, Passport Canada
The difficulty we have with regard to the pay scale is that departments have an appropriation. They have an amount of money provided to them through the budget. But we are self-financed, and there's a ceiling on how much we can charge for a passport.
10:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer , Executive Office, Passport Canada
So we have to manage the salary envelope within that.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Maybe that's my question: if there is no difference when it's all said and done, if you can retain the employees, if your training costs would be reduced if in fact you could afford to pay them the same as what the other departments are willing to pay.
10:40 a.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Operations Bureau, Passport Canada
It's absolutely a reasonable hypothesis, but it's a bit chicken and egg, in that we need to accrue the savings in order to pay people more. And it has to be an ongoing savings, because once you've raised a salary, it's an ongoing cost, not a one-time cost.
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