Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Brown, and then Mr. Albrecht.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Yes, we're going to share this slot.

I have a question, Ms. Fraser. In your report, in regard to official residences, one thing I noted was that there has been a great deal spent on official residences over the last few years. I understand that since 1999-2000 and 2004-2005, there have been allotments made for the official residences. Could you comment on--in your review--to what degree was the work significant, and in what areas did they improve the official residences?

And also, going forward--and looking at the hefty figure we saw that was needed for the Prime Minister's residence--do you know if any of that contained greening elements to the official residences to make them more environmentally friendly?

[Sheila Fraser]

That is correct, and in fact there have been quite significant funds given to the National Capital Commission. There was an initial six-year funding program from 1999 to 2005. Before that, the funding that had been given for renovations and restorations had been quite limited. From 1997 to date, the National Capital Commission has spent about $37 million on the official residences. And in fact a good chunk of that--I'd say the majority of that--probably has gone to Rideau Hall. But there have also been expenditures made to improve the conditions of many of the other residences, such as Stornoway, and The Farm and Harrington Lake. There is additional work that is needed at Rideau Hall, and of course 24 Sussex.

I'm not sure that we looked at it specifically, but there has been work done in areas of conservation and in greening--for example, changing the windows, heat loss, and those kinds of things. That has been one of the major expenditures in certain residences and is still one of the major expenditures that has to be made in several. With 24 Sussex, the windows are very old and there is significant heat loss because of that.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I was just talking to my colleague Mr. Warkentin, who is getting a new roof, and he was telling me it is going to cost him $7,000. And I realize these buildings are a lot bigger and more significant. And Chris isn't doing the work himself, either.

From a taxpayers' perspective, you always get a little concerned when you see figures that large. When you hear that $36 million has already been spent, and looking at the cost.... Why are these figures so significant? Is there extra cost because of the historical nature of the buildings, or security costs? Maybe you could expand upon that a little bit.

[Sheila Fraser]

There are a couple of elements to it. One is, of course, the size of the properties. Rideau Hall--for people who like to deal with these kinds of things--has 300 windows and 4,000 square metres of roofing. Mr. Warkentin can probably tell us a whole lot more about what all this means than I can, but they're very large. And there is not just one residence, of course. There are many buildings on that property, and many of them are in quite bad condition. So the costs, just because of the size of the properties.... As well, because they are historic properties, there is a certain rigour that has to be followed in the renovations there, so it does required skilled tradespeople.

And the other main issue is that the systems are very, very old, and all need to be replaced. So when you have to replace all the heating.... There is no central air. If you want to put in central air, I presume that means opening up all the walls. There is asbestos in there that has to all be taken out. The kitchens aren't functional. and the laundries aren't functional because it's not just a family of four or five people who live there; there are all the official functions that go on, so they have to have much more elaborate installations than any of us would have in our house. But any of us who have done repairs know that it always ends up costing more than we ever thought. So it is an expensive proposition.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Albrecht, you can have a very short question.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I can wait until the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You want to wait until the next round? Okay.

Go a head, Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I still have some questions.

As I listened to you speak, Ms. Fraser, an image popped into my head. There is a saying in Quebec that when a structure is either too old or has been abandoned, it's time to bulldoze it to the ground and rebuild. No one raises a fuss about it and a new structure is erected. It's just something to think about.

I'd like to focus on two areas examined in your report. First of all, I want to talk about passports. You state that as a rule, departments should operate on a cost-recovery basis. Is that correct? You note the following:

The fee charged for a good, a service, or the use of a facility must take into account the cost incurred by the department or agency.

[Sheila Fraser]

Departments need to consider cost, but they do not necessarily need to charge the full amount. They need to have a clear idea of the cost and to take this into account when the set their fees. However, the revenues collected must not exceed the cost of providing the service.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In your opinion, are current passport fees fair?

[Sheila Fraser]

The matter we looked into is the $25 fee charged for consular services. These are included in the cost of the passport, which is $87, I think. When the government approved charging a fee for consular services, it set out clearly what that fee should cover.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Wait a minute, do not go too fast. A passport costs $87 and consular fees are $25. Are they included in the $87?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Is that normal? Not everyone needs those services.

[Sheila Fraser]

The $25 fee applies to adult passports. Some say that it is a bit like insurance. If something happens to a person when they are overseas, consular services can help.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

But not everywhere has a consulate.

[Sheila Fraser]

Maybe not, but...

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

And you do not need that kind of service each time. I understand that it is insurance, but, without these fees, the passport would cost less.

[Sheila Fraser]

It would.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In some places, Canada Post reviews passport applications before sending them to Passport Canada. The passport and the consular fees cost people $87. It costs $25 more for Canada Post to review the application. Do you not think that that is expensive for a passport?

[Sheila Fraser]

I do not think that we looked into all the costs, but I very much doubt that they exceed the cost of the passport.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I ask you the question because we are presently studying the way in which Passport Canada manages its services, especially in the regions. Not all major centres have passport offices. As a result, the offices of members of Parliament have to absorb the growing demand, and, in many cases, that causes difficulty. We found out that a Passport Canada mobile unit would come to some towns to provide the services, both because MPs' offices could no longer keep up with the task and because Passport Canada just wants to let the public know that it provides the services.

I do not recall whether you looked at all the services that Passport Canada currently provides. Did you?

[Sheila Fraser]

We have conducted at least two audits of Passport Canada. A follow-up audit will be held in February 2010, if I recall correctly. We looked at security and performance indicators, among other things. The department provided a response to the audit. In fact, Passport Canada is presently looking at the possibility of extending the life of a passport from five years to ten.