Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I just thought I'd bring that point up, because it's a fairly recent phenomenon, but I think it's a costly one, and there needs to be more planning where these people are located. I just threw that in.

There is a call to vote, I can see. We need a unanimous motion to continue for a few minutes. This will be a 30-minute bell, so we can allow a few more questions if you wish. The vote will be held at about 11:10.

I have two people who wish to say something—Madame Faille and Mr. Warkentin—and we do have time if the committee is.... Okay.

We'll hear from Madame Faille, and then Mr. Warkentin. We'll end at that point, because we'll have to go and vote.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I would also like to thank Ms. Fraser for talking about the First Nations issue. It reminds us that the government is doing nothing, and in a number of areas, I should add.

If I recall correctly, in 1991, Parliament established the Erasmus-Dussault Commission whose official title was the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. Mr. Albrecht had a question just now and this is the answer. The government has already studied aboriginal peoples, Mr. Albrecht. Parliament set up the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in 1991 to look into the status of aboriginal peoples. First Nations chiefs came last year, or two years ago, to complain about the lack of action on this issue.

I just wanted to ask one question just now when my colleague was talking about inspections. Does your report mention that experienced inspectors used to conduct spot checks on airline companies?

Now it is more difficult to conduct those spot checks because the maintenance work is done overseas. Over there, they have to say when they are coming in advance, maybe for security reasons. So they can no longer arrive unannounced to do random spot checks. A number of those experienced inspectors will be retiring soon. So there are a number of problems associated with the transition, which increases the risk.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, we noted the human resources difficulties. The number of inspectors decreases by about 8% per year. But there is no human resources transition plan. If the method of inspection changes, they have to determine if the skills must also change. The inspectors are going to review the systems. So they will need more training.

This part of the chapter dealing with human resources is quite important; a human resources plan is going to be needed in order to tackle the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

I give the floor to Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for giving me these last couple of minutes.

There are several things I'd like to get into with you. Maybe if we get some time, we'll talk about renovations at the buildings.

I want to talk to you about your relationship with the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Actually, my predecessor advocated for this position for years and years, so I'd like to pay tribute to Charlie Penson at this point, because his work has now come to fruition.

I'm wondering about the relationship between you and him. Is there anything that you would recommend to our committee to recommend to him to be ever vigilant of? I guess from us he's looking for some help in creating the mandate and the things he's going to continue to work on. But is there anything specific, which, if he paid attention to it, would serve Canadians well?

[Sheila Fraser]

I have already met with the Parliamentary Budget Officer. We have discussed ways we could probably collaborate together in the future on some of the work we're doing, especially to make sure that we don't duplicate work.

I gave him one piece of advice. He has a very large mandate. I asked him how he is going to deal with requests from members of Parliament. He needs to be very clear with parliamentarians about what requests he will accept and what requests he may not, about priorities, and about how he is going to deal with all of that. That can become a very slippery slope for anyone in that position. I think that would be good.

I know he's already talked about how he's going to plan his work. He's discussed with us how we do ours. I think he'd like to use a similar approach. So we are going to collaborate and certainly show him how we handle those sorts of issues. I said that the best thing for him would be to understand how he wants to do this, and then to be quite transparent, and have good discussions with members too, as to how he's going to approach this.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you.

Now, to put something more on your plate, because as members of Parliament we're always asking folks in positions like yours to look into different things, I'd like to echo some of the concerns that were brought up by our chair with regard to the efficiencies within the civil service.

We're quite concerned within this committee when we hear about 40% of the civil service having moved from one position to another in the past year. That seems to be a growing trend within the civil service. And there may be factors contributing to that. But we're also concerned about the aging population and how it's going to affect our civil service. I'm sure you're going to keep an eye on this as you look several years down the road and look at studies. We would just like to perhaps direct you in that. If in fact something catches your eye, we're concerned about the government's attention to it. Whoever is in government is going to have to deal with the aging population and with the turnover within the civil service, and how the two may relate. So take that for what it's worth.

[Sheila Fraser]

I very much agree with you. We have been doing it on a kind of case-by-case basis. We did an audit last year on the Department of Foreign Affairs and all the human resource issues there, and we noted that there were a significant number of people who were eligible for retirement, a lot of vacant positions, a lot of people in acting positions for very long periods of time, and no real human resource planning.

It's hard to generalize from one or two audits, but I think that this is probably pretty common across government, so it is a preoccupation of ours.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you. That's good to hear.

If I have just a couple of minutes, I'd like to venture into this whole issue of renovations and the cost. I think generally Canadians look at the number. I think the one that was highlighted was almost $10 million going to 24 Sussex, and you've outlined in your report the necessity of the specific upgrades.

We're talking about a 9,000-square-foot building. We're talking about $10,000 per square foot to bring in heating, ventilation, air conditioning, and all these things. If we were going to build a new house, we would build it for maybe $500 or $700 or $1,000 per square foot, but not $10,000 per square foot.

I'm wondering if you, in your position as Auditor General, would ever consider--and I'm not thinking so much of 24 Sussex, but I'm thinking of maybe The Farm and some of these buildings that were never constructed for the quality of life that we expect today--at any point that it might be time for the construction of a new residence.

Obviously we would maintain the old one for museum purposes, but with the cost of renovations and upkeep, I can speculate from my experience within the construction industry that it's much more expensive to retrofit a building for the official purposes than it would be just to maintain it as a museum. For new construction to go forward.... Obviously as we consider, there are some of these buildings that I can imagine will never be able to be upgraded to the point where they will be as efficient as something that was newly constructed.

I'm wondering--and this is irreverent of me, I'm sure, to contemplate that we would move and change an official residence--at what point we have to consider that in terms of efficiencies.

[Sheila Fraser]

Madam Chair, I think it is really up to the National Capital Commission, which manages this, to make that assessment and to bring forward the various options that could be available. I think it would really be up to them.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

So within your mandate, you wouldn't see it as a recommendation that you--

[Sheila Fraser]

No.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate that. Maybe this committee should speak to the National Capital Commission.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Before we adjourn, I just want to remind the committee that we will be hearing, I believe, from the ombudsman for small business on the procurement issue on May 27.

Have a good break week.

Thank you, Madam Fraser, for coming before us. We'll have to go and vote now.

The meeting is adjourned.