Government Operations Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Albrecht mentioned it was the first time that he personally has heard about this problem, and he suggested that there had been dialogue between.... I'll talk for myself personally and the witnesses. I want to make clear that I have not had a previous dialogue with the three witnesses who appeared before us this morning from the industry. As far as the first time, Mr. Albrecht probably wanted to say that he had not heard of this himself, because when I look at the transcripts from previous meetings, there have been red flags that have been waved.

So Mr. Poole, you seem to the be the star--

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

This is your first meeting here. This is the first time you've come to this committee.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I've read the transcripts, James.

Mr. Poole, before we go too far, Madame Saint Pierre said—and I have the French version—they will continue their consultations, and so on. Previous witnesses said they had not been consulted. What's your version? Who says the right thing? Have there been consultations or have there not been consultations?

[Steven Poole, Chief Executive Officer, Information Technology Services Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Madam Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity to respond.

There have been consultations. The consultations, in fact, occur informally, where I have been out making presentations to a variety of fora--I believe probably 10 or 12 presentations, to organizations like OCRI, ITAC, and GTEC. So those presentations have been made. There are more formal consultations, particularly on this network services contract. I believe there have been three RFIs, requests for information, over the past three years.

I do understand what they were presenting, and I believe they're looking for a more formal consultative process than the two I just described and what my colleague has just explained. We are committed to doing that.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Poole, I want to come back to OCRI, but before I do that, just clear up my understanding. Are we talking about a 15-year contract for this, or are we talking about a one-year contract with potential renewals?

[Steven Poole]

In the consultations we have discussed a variety of potential terms for these types of contracts. I just need to re-emphasize that there are requests for information; we're in the consultation phase, and it's not until we get to a request for proposal that we actually formalize what the terms can be. So it's quite natural, sir, that there are discussions about the term, on which my perspective says there is consultation--

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Okay. You understand we are timed. Madam Chair is a nice lady, but she's pretty quick on the clock, so I'll keep your comments short, if you don't mind.

Mr. Poole, I don't think I'm out of order, but seeing that you're the chief executive officer.... In a previous committee hearing a witness mentioned that one of the employees would be the largest shareholder in a company that's a direct competitor of other IT companies and is a former vice-president of CGI. Do you know who I'm talking about here?

[Steven Poole]

I'm not entirely sure.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

As far as your employee is concerned...do you know a gentleman by the name of Danek?

[Steven Poole]

Yes, I'm aware of Mr. Danek.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Would he be the largest shareholder of a company that competes with other members in the industry? Is that possible under conflict of interest rules?

[Steven Poole]

Madam Chair, he's not the owner of those shares of a large company.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You mentioned OCRI. In your presentation there you indicated that one of the reasons you were potentially moving towards the bundling of contracts was a labour shortfall in IT. Mr. Cochrane from Treasury Board stated that the Organizational Readiness Office was very successful in attracting a large number of people from the private sector and that it was of great benefit. Is he wrong?

[Steven Poole]

The first point I would mention is that we're not using bundling for the professional services. I just want to make that point, and we might have an opportunity to discuss that later.

Mr. Cochrane is saying that today the Organizational Readiness Office has been successful at recruiting. When I talk about the future, I'm talking about five to seven years, where the Conference Board of Canada has predicted these shortfalls. So what we're talking about here is the difference between the success of today and the potential of successful recruiting in the future.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Madam Saint Pierre—

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

This is the last question.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

This is the last question.

The Auditor General stated in her report....

Would you prefer it if I spoke in French?

[Liliane saint pierre]

Whatever you prefer.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The Auditor General stated in her report that research clearly indicates small IT projects are more likely to succeed. Do you think that presenting the largest—I should say potentially presenting the largest—ever IT project ever undertaken by the Government of Canada is an adequate response to her position, to her statement, to her findings?

[Liliane saint pierre]

Madam Chair, when the Auditor General said that small projects have a greater chance of being successful, she was referring to technology development projects. We are continuing to receive requests from client departments for the service of contractors to allow these development projects to move forward.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I need to leave for the House, but I will return later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Go ahead, Madame Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good day, Madam, gentlemen.

Madam Chair, is the clock running while they are making noise?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Go ahead, Madam.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Ms. saint pierre, I think you're very brave to meet with us today, given this whole issue and how it could affect your credibility.

By the way, I want you to know that I do hold you in high esteem. Your courage is a credit to you. I do, however, have a few questions. At the conclusion of your statement, you say this:

We also now plan to put in the bid solicitation mandatory provisions that bidders include an SME subcontracting plan in their proposals.

To my mind, it is clear that the witnesses who testified before you and described the problems they were having were absolutely right in saying that outrageous contracts would be awarded to large firms, that they would be shut out of subcontracts and that there was nothing they could do about it.

You continue: “[...] we will also establish a structure for a more formal consultation process [...]” Mr. Poole told us that he had consulted with people and made some presentations. Understandably, credibility is taking a bit of a hit here.

Would you care to respond?